Participants: Rupinder [Mom], Harnaaz, Saaya & Sahiti

Naaz: Do you think racism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Mom: I think racism is still everywhere, especially in the workplace. If you are a white person you will always get priority but black people won’t, brown people won’t. As a brown business owner, I see it all the time. There’s a preference for white trucker drivers, white customers, etc.

Saaya: I think with my generation having access to phones you can hide behind a screen and hide your identity. You can say anything you want without getting caught. There's less physical racism but you see a lot of hate messages on platforms like TikTok. I feel like it comes in so many different forms now and is almost more aggressive because kids my age know they can get away with it.

Sahiti: Racism is most definitely still here. The way you are seeing it is changing a little bit. Like Saaya said you can hide your identity now whereas back in the day it was a lot more in your face.

Naaz: Do you think sexism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Mom: Again, my point of view comes from being a business owner. I can think of an incident recently where one of our truck driver’s wife thought I was sending inappropriate messages because she couldn’t phantom the fact that a brown woman was leading a trucking company. Why is it not ok for a woman to be doing a man’s job? Why can’t I be the boss of a company? I don’t think these things are going to go away anytime soon, unfortunately.

Saaya: We grew up being taught that men are the leaders, the strong ones. But my generation and Didi's (older sister aka me) generation are seeing more women leaders and seeing women take more initiative. For example, in Surrey, South Asian women are dominating the make-up industry and you wouldn’t have seen that a few years ago. But we still struggle. One because of the color of our skin and two because no one wants to see brown girls succeed. Everyone's out to get you and take you down. We see women do it to other women because for some reason it's hard to see others succeed. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what our skin color is, it doesn’t matter what sex we identify as, we are all human but this barrier continues to be there.

Sahiti: 10 out of 10. As a mechanical engineer, this is something I have dealt with my entire life. I went to a university in a small town and it was so hard for some people to grasp the concept of me, a brown female, being a mechanical engineer. Peers wouldn’t listen to me in class because I was a female. I remember this one time in class we were operating a pretty expensive piece of machinery and my partner would just not listen to me. My professor walks by and stops us immediately and tells him how to do it correctly…which was the way I was saying all along! There wasn’t even an apology from my partner or anything. I felt vindicated but I didn’t get closure.

Saaya: I think I can add to that too. I am in school for psychology and one of my best friends is in engineering and she's also a female. So when people ask what field I am in I will say psychology and I usually hear comments like “oh yeah that makes sense” but when they ask Sukhneet (the friend in engineering) they are shocked because she is a female. So I think it's so true what Sahiti is saying. We aren’t close to being equal yet despite what people may think.

Naaz: Do you think racism and sexism are connected when thinking about how South Asian women are treated in Canada?

Sahiti: I'm sure it is. I can think back to instances in my life where I have been discriminated against but it was either because I was brown or because I was a woman. I can think of one recent incident where it might have been both. A lot of people I work with are older white men. So as soon as they meet me the first thing they think is “oh she's a girl. She doesn't know what she is doing” and then the immediate thought following is “oh she's also brown and now she's going to try and tell me what to do”. A white female colleague and I went to the site and the second we got there we knew the man we were dealing with was…well an asshole. When I was talking to him he wouldn’t make eye contact with me and it seemed like he almost didn’t care about what I had to say. But when my white female colleague spoke to him he listened more but he did still talk down to us. So he treated us both poorly. I just got the shitter end of the stick for also being brown.

Mom: I’m in the construction business which is pretty male-dominated. I remember last year this white male driver’s truck broke down so I went to the truck with my tools and my things. I started fixing his truck and he was so shocked that I was (a) a female and (b) a brown female. If your dad was there he wouldn’t care as much. He would think that's normal and not make the stupid comments he did about me.

Naaz: Mom, we’ve had conversations before about the racism you’ve experienced in Canada. Do you think racism has changed in Canada? What type of racism did you experience when you first immigrated here? What does it look like now?

Mom: The racism from the 80s was totally different from the racism I experience now. In the 80s when I was in school our community was made up of farmers, biker gangs, etc. We used to get spit on, our lockers would be glued shut all the time, students would yell racial slurs as I walked down the hallway. I remember this one time my English teacher told me that she won’t give me 90% or even 80% in her class because English was my second language. So I ended up with a 60% even though I was doing better than half my classmates. My older brother was a genius and he would also do the bonus assignments, and get As on tests, and our teachers wouldn’t give him anything higher than 60% too. So they were already setting us up to fail while the white kids got to succeed. Why do you think Bindy Johal was such an iconic figure for us? It's because he was one of the first brown guys in our community to stand up against police violence, hate crimes, and blatant racism but they labeled him as this gangster to discredit him. All he was trying to do was get our voices out there. We were protected by him. But even when you [Naaz] were growing up teachers would treat you differently. You got  put into ESL classes because you spoke a second language. Teachers assumed you were dumb because you came from India. Those kinds of things still happened in the early 2000s. Now I can fight back. Back then I couldn’t because there just wasn’t enough of us. 

Naaz: Sahiti and Saaya, as a first generation Canadians, have you experienced racism and how have you navigated that?

Sahiti: Growing up mom made delicious meals all the time. Indian food is fanatic. Let's just set that record straight. But I got made fun of every time I opened up my lunchbox because the food was “stinky”. So then it started becoming plain old peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I would literally beg my mom like “please don’t make these meals” and you could see that it broke her heart. She didn’t want her daughter to be ashamed of her culture but it was the way it was. She was stuck between a rock and hard place because she wanted me to be proud of my culture but she also knew I was getting bullied. It got better in high school because I went to a predominately South Asian school. I saw other people embracing their culture which made it safe for me to embrace mine. University was tough. I grew up in Calgary so I learned two-step, and I listened to country music so when I moved to a small town I felt like I needed to be that much extra. I would be extra nice, be extra smiley. I would also go to the dance floor to make it a point that brown girls knew how to dance but it didn’t help. I would like to think I am a relatively attractive person (I mean DUH of course my best friend is beautiful!) but no one would ever approach me because I was a brown girl. Hell, my friend would have a literal engagement ring on her hand but boys would come up to her all the time and she would direct them to me. The second they looked at me they would walk away because I was a brown girl and that was a huge shock for me.

Saaya: I went to a primarily white elementary school and that's exactly what I used to do too. I remember for the longest time I would suppress my own culture and not speak Punjabi. You wanted to fit in, you wanted to be liked, and you brought the food that you saw other students were bringing. Who we are, what we ate, and what we valued weren’t accepted back then and I was ashamed of that. When I went to high school things changed. I felt safer because I was surrounded by people that were also South Asian. There were still some brown girl stereotypes you had to deal with like getting made fun of for thicker curves and facial hair. I still felt like I was being stereotyped by teachers though and mind you I just graduated high school like last year. Teachers still put brown kids into a box and that's not fair.

Naaz: Sahiti, why do you think you experienced a shift in racism moving from Calgary to Kelowna?

Sahiti: I think it has to do with exposure and education. People from larger cities are forced to learn about different cultures because they are exposed to them, whether they like it or not. It was common to have Indian kids in your class, it was common for us to bring “stinky” food. Whereas in small towns there wasn’t that exposure. I remember having to almost “whitify” my name because I was just constantly told that my name is too hard to say. It's not that hard but I went years with a different name to fit in. I went back to suppressing the Indian in me and I did not enjoy that.

Saaya: I get what Sahiti means by exposure. I grew up in the heart of Vancouver and when I moved to UVIC it was a much smaller town. I think I can count on one hand the number of people I know that are brown at UVIC. People in Vancouver can even tell the difference between Punjabis and Gujratis, Sikhs and Hindus, but over there they have no clue. So I think it's because in smaller towns there's just less education and exposure like Sahiti said. If anything it's other IBPOC people that approach me and want to be friends with me, not white people.

Naaz: Mom,  how was it for you as an immigrant mother raising girls in Canada? How did you balance the integration of both Canadian and South Asian culture?

Mom: It was a tough position for me as a mom and a businesswoman. In our culture, we are taught that men are the leaders even though when you and Saaya were growing up I did everything. But we still had to attach a man’s name and a man got all the credit for a woman’s work. That's because it's been instilled in me since childhood. It starts with your dad, then your brothers, then your husband, and your sons. I think I still have those biases sometimes but they have become so internalized that it's hard to break through. One thing that always keeps me going is I remember the things I had to go through, the struggles I went through and I don’t want my girls to have to go through that. When I was growing up I wasn’t allowed to go out, I wasn’t allowed to shave, etc. So I made sure I gave that freedom to my daughters. Yes, there are times when I will silence my girls and I am sorry for that but like I said it's so drilled into me to be that way. If I could do it again I would raise my girls in a completely different way (note to mother: You raised two badass, intelligent women, who will always stand up against injustice. You raised your girls right ❤️)

Naaz: Sahiti and Saaya, as  first generation Canadians , how has it been integrating the dominant Canadian culture with your own heritage and cultural background? How was it balancing the East vs the West, the brown vs the white?

Saaya: I think mom taught us balance. Dad would teach us paath (prayer) and we had daily Punjabi and Sikhism lessons from him. The cool thing mom did, which not many South Asian moms do, is she taught us about the business aspect of things. She would take me to random business meetings, she would take me to the store, to the yard. I picked up on her boss lady mannerisms and I adopted them. At school though I had an identity crisis because I had different sets of friends so I didn’t know how to act, when to act and who to act around. I know when didi was growing up our parents were definitely strict but when I got older I was able to break through the cultural norms. I was allowed to wear certain clothes, have boy and girl friends over, etc. With time and age, and raising didi before me, I think mom and dad just learned how to teach us that balance. 
Sahiti: For the longest time I lived separate lives. I had a separate closet my dad didn’t know about. I had a separate set of friends my dad never met. My mom was my mom so I was always able to tell her things because it was easier with her. She would be interested in parts of my life and ask questions. Eventually, it got tough and tiring. I needed to be true to myself and being in high school it was a lot easier because I was able to embrace my Indian side. But for the longest time, it was not easy, and integrating into two was not a smooth transition. For the longest time, it was “kill the Indian” in me and be as white as possible.

Naaz: Do you think our education system has done a good job at educating people about South Asian culture and community? If not, do you think it should be included in Canada’s education system?

Sahiti: I think Canadian history in general is not taught well..sorry not sorry. I had a teacher who went against the curriculum to teach us about residential schools because she thought it was important and I am very proud of her for that. In school, they didn’t want us to be taught about residential schools, and other dark parts of our history, because it wasn’t a part of Canada’s highlight reel. It needs to be studied and it needs to be respected because it happened and there is nothing we can do to change that. The people that live on this land need to understand what happened to the people that own this land. The least we can do is acknowledge what happened. Aside from that, I think I learned a little bit about the Chinese railroad situation in BC but we didn’t even touch on South Asian history. We have a decent South Asian population in Canada so I do think we need to incorporate something. But I think we need to focus on Indigenous history first. It will be a lot easier for people to wrap their heads around that before we can discuss South Asian history in Canada.
Saaya: That's so shocking to hear it wasn’t in your curriculum because when I was leaving elementary school it was mandatory to learn about Indigenous history…but it was sugar-coated. I remember my grade 6 teacher, Mr. Minhas, introduced a “What in the World '' activity each week where we talked about current world events. I think something like that should be incorporated in all schools. In high school, we talked more in-depth about Canada’s government and what they did to Indigenous people in Canada but they wouldn't reveal the full truth. They would tell us to go learn on our own and what they would teach us would be sugar-coated. I think the only time I learned about South Asian history was Komagata Maru in grade 10 and even then it was briefly mentioned. I agree with Sahiti though. We need to be taught about true Canadian history and only then can we incorporate South Asian history within that.

Naaz: Have you ever been treated differently because of the color of your skin, whether that's in a health care setting or going to a restaurant?

Sahiti: Restaurants all the time. I recently went to a bar and there was some live music playing and I was the only person of color in the entire place. No one was talking to me. I was waiting at the bar and you would think being a woman at the bar I would get served. Sexism in reverse and all. The bar wasn’t busy at all and I even had my card pulled out, ready to go. No one would serve me. Two white guys came up and got served and still nothing. Then finally a friend of mine, a white male, came up to the bar, and immediately the bartender came running to us. 
Saaya: I think we automatically get looked down upon anywhere we go. People start to analyze us. They look at the color of our skin and see if we have an accent or not. Why can’t you just see me as another human being? It's just so automatic I guess but we get treated differently for sure. Look at dad for example. He is a South Asian male and wears a paag (turban). People treat him poorly at restaurants all the time, whether it's intentional or not. Or take nani for example who wears Punjabi suits in public. Because she isn’t wearing a shirt and jeans, she gets looked down upon.

Naaz: Has the COVID-19 pandemic played a role in perpetuating racism towards South Asians in Canada? 

Mom: I remember when the vaccine first came out. Surrey is predominantly South Asian and we can’t deny it. We went to Surrey to get our vaccine and there was a long, long lineup. But if you went to Langley, White Rock, or South Surrey even, where the population was predominantly white, you were all the sudden able to get the vaccine without waiting in line. All of a sudden areas like Langley and White Rock, which have a smaller population overall, had all these resources but a large city like Surrey didn't. Why? Because it was filled with brown people. The same thing happened again with the second vaccine. We went to Surrey and again waited in line. But if you went to White Rock you got in right away. The health care system treated Surrey like a third-world country because it was filled with brown people. That opened up my eyes quite a bit. 

Saaya: That just makes me so mad because culturally South Asians live in multi-family houses and we do live with grandparents who are at more risk for COVID-19. So brown people have actually been one of the populations to go get our vaccines first in order to protect our Elderly but then they pull shit like this making it hard for us to get them. Then they turn around and blame us for the spread of COVID-19 (for context: a Premier in Alberta went on a radio show and talked about how Punjabi people are not “complicit” and South Asians living in big families are one of the reasons why COVID-19 continues to spread in Canada). The government and media are going to pick a narrative that works for them and run with it. The majority of the people in Surrey that were anti-mask and anti-vaccine were white but I don’t see that on the news. But sure we brown people don’t follow the rules and we are the reason for spreading COVID...what a joke! It isn’t just COVID-19 too. Look at Diwali for example. Yes, people did leave a mess of fireworks but they cleaned it up the next day. I don’t see newspapers making those kinds of accusations on Canada Day. 
Sahiti: The white privilege in choosing to get vaccines is something I completely agree with. Because choosing not to get the vaccine is the ultimate show of white privilege, in my opinion. I don’t know a single person of color who didn’t get the vaccine. We are so used to having vaccines, especially coming from countries like India. Hell the UN and World Health Organization doesn’t even give us the option. They don’t need anyone’s consent…they just come stab babies with vaccines. Why? Because vaccines work people! From what I have seen it is predominately white people in Canada that don't want to get the vaccine, they are the ones protesting, etc. As far as I know, every South Asian person I have interacted with was either happy to work from home, waiting for the bans to be lifted or following the mandate. And like Saaya said, if you had grandparents at home, you didn’t want to put them at risk.

Naaz: Why do you think South Asian women do not report hate crimes?

Saaya: I think it's because we are taught not to speak up about things like this. Even at weddings or South Asian events if something illegal happens or if a fight breaks out we are told to be quiet about it and not call the police. We are taught to uphold this beautiful image of what South Asian people are and should be. Plus in Surrey, you don’t want to come off as the “snitch” because then the Surrey Jacks won’t like you or whatever. It's just taught to us over and over again and it's up to us to break through that. Speak up about what is happening and report it. 

Sahiti: We are taught to put our heads down and study and create a better life. So we become tunnel visioned and stay in this bubble. I know my parents had the best intentions but I was always taught to not make a big deal out of it, or that people were only joking, or that because we come from a different country we just have to deal with it. Hasan Minaj talks about this in one of his stand-ups and it really resonated with me. It was something like if you talk about it, you’ll get in more trouble because it will turn into “what were you doing, you must have been doing something wrong”. We see this all the time with women who report sexual assault right? What was she wearing? What was she drinking? She must have done something to provoke the situation. Whereas in reality she just happened to be a woman regardless of the circumstance.

Naaz: What is needed to help address racism in Canada towards the South Asian community? 

Saaya: I think social media has helped a lot and can continue to be helpful. More people are being called out on social media for saying racist things. And yes I know some people are saying canceling culture is too hard or whatever but it's also doing some good. Another thing that will help address racism is speaking up about it. Everything we were raised not to do is what we should be doing. We should report it, we should speak up against it. People can create awareness all they want but it's up to us to put it into action. 
Mom: I think Saaya is completely right. I think social media is huge. I think our schooling system also needs to address racism. It starts at kindergarten not grade 11 when it's too late and the biases are already cemented. The school system needs to be revised. We need to learn about Indigenous history, South Asian history, and so forth.

Sahiti: How do you change anything? Education. That's what is happening with social media...people are educating themselves and becoming more aware. Yes, the repercussions might be cancel culture but at the end of the day, people are still listening, people are still grasping that knowledge, people are still remembering it and learning from that 30-second TikTok that they saw. I think the problem now is there is also misinformation so some negative things are being pushed. There's good and bad in everything but I still think good outweighs the bad. It's always going to come down to education. 

Naaz: Where can someone go to learn more about South Asian cultures? 

Sahiti: YouTube is fantastic! I've learned so many different things by just watching YouTube videos, especially about India’s history. I am sure there's stuff on there about South Asians in Canada. 

Mom: In every corner of Canada we have gurdwaras and we will always welcome you with open arms. So if anyone wants to be taught about Punjabi culture and Sikh religion I would say go there. The priests are always willing to teach you. Otherwise, I think libraries are always a good source but who really goes to a library anymore?

Saaya: There are some really good social media accounts you can learn from. The simplest thing you can do is go to your brown peers and start asking them questions. But make sure you are asking in ways that are embracing their culture and not offensive. Ask them about their personal experiences and be willing to listen to them.

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about the many cultures that come out of South Asia?

Sahiti: What drives me insane is people don’t realize the power behind bindis. Stop wearing them to your effing music festivals and go learn about what they actually represent. My mom wears one every single day. She has never once been asked why. She has never been asked about the significance behind it. Also, there is a lot to learn about India. In Canada, the Punjabi population has dominated and is the largest South Asian community here but I wish people knew that India is way more diverse than that. “South Asia'' encompasses more than just Punjabi people. 

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about South Asian women? 

Mom: South Asian women are the brainpower in the home. We deal with every situation. We not only raise our children but we work, uphold the housework, etc. I don’t have the luxury to getting mad and say fuck it I am taking the day off. South Asian women put up with a lot of shit and I wish people knew that. There is never a situation where a woman doesn’t know what to do. 

Saaya: I have a lot to say about us South Asian women. I love having a space where I can dress up and feel pretty. We have this unspoken camaraderie with other South Asian women. I think it's because we have been through similar experiences so we are always willing to lend a shoulder to cry on. It's a beautiful form of therapy. I love our brown sisterhood.

Final Messages 

Mom’s final message: My message is to all my daughters out there and my mothers. Listen to your children, and let them be who they want to be. It's going to be very difficult but give them that freedom because it will give them the self-confidence they need in this world. I wish someone would have let me fly free but I didn’t get that. So my wish for the next generation of South Asian girls is for them to fly free and soar in the sky. 

Sahiti’s final message: My message is to the younger me, and the younger generations like Saaya. We hold onto a lot of guilt but we don’t have to. I hold a lot of guilt because I was ashamed of my culture for the longest time and now I'm trying to backtrack and embrace my culture more. To the younger generations, I want to say that it is tough and you are doing the best you can, kid. Keep your head up and wherever you land, be true to yourself. Be happy with who you are and don’t feel guilty. It is okay. You are okay. 

Saaya’s final message: You are you and there is nothing more beautiful than that. Who you are on the inside should be the only thing that matters.