Meet the Saini Women

Participants: Nani-ji, Harjit [Auntie-ji], Jasmine

Naaz: Do you think racism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Nani-ji: When we came in 74’ it happened to us a lot. We didn’t know English back then so we couldn’t even understand what they were saying to us. When they made comments like “get out of our country” Jasmine’s nana (maternal grandfather) would fight back. He would tell them that Canada is everyone’s country, that we all immigrated here, and the only people that can truly call this country home are the Native people.There is still racism now but there is a strong South Asian presence in Canada and now we can understand what they are saying and fight back. Back in the day, especially in our community, there was a lot of preference given to boys over girls. Families would be looked down upon if a boy wasn’t born in their house. The expectation was the girl was going to get married off to another family and you wanted a boy to carry on your lineage. But those kinds of things don’t matter as much anymore. I want my girls to study. I want them to get an education just as much as I want the boys in our family too. It's not just in our community though. We see it in Canada and dominant cultures as well. 

Harjit Auntie-ji: I think it exists in Canada and I have definitely experienced it in the household and professionally. I have seen it within my family. Not so much from my dad but definitely from my mom. It took me a really long time to understand where it comes from and I think it's just the way she's been molded by the generation of women before her. We always talk about the men carrying on the lineage but I don’t think it's just the men that can carry on the family name, women can do it too! When I was pregnant with Jasmine I would pray all the time she was a girl and I was so proud when I found out. I made a vow to myself that I wasn’t going to treat her any differently than how I would treat my son because I went through that and I wanted to break that cycle. My first way of breaking down that barrier was distributing ladoos. We always distribute ladoos as a sign of celebration when a boy is born but rarely when a girl is born. I didn’t like ladoos so I distributed jalebees instead and my mom got mad at me for it. I even threw a party in honor of Jasmine when she was born. I don’t let Jasmine ever feel or think she is lesser than her brother or any other boy out there. We have to keep fighting against it. The sad thing is I see women putting other women down and we allow it. My dad was one of our biggest advocates. So if I am who I am today it has a lot to do with my dad. My mom didn’t have a driver's license so dad pushed her to learn and a lot of Punjabi men to this day don’t let that happen. We can’t fault the men for everything because look at my dad as an example.
I remember this one story and it fits so perfectly. On certain days a lot of Punjabi women don’t wash their hair, right? On Tuesdays, it's bad luck for the brothers if you wash it. Then on Thursdays, it's bad luck for your husband. On Saturdays, it's bad luck for your house. So I asked my dad “what about us[women] and why do we not wash our hair?” and you know what he said to me? He said “someone like me made those rules because back in the day women in India had long hair. So when they would wash it, they would have to spend the whole day drying and combing it. So what happens? The housework doesn’t get done so we came up with this stupid rule”. So I wash my hair every single day. 

Jasmine: When we question it we get told that it is how it is. But when did it start? We just don’t ask why and there are many reasons. Take nani for example. She came from India and didn’t have an education because she wasn’t given that opportunity back home. So a lot of what she learned came from my nana. Thankfully my nani and nana were more progressive people so nani did things that were “out of the norm” like wearing jeans, driving a car, etc. She had support from nana and that caused a ripple effect on my mom and then me. Other women don’t get that opportunity though. When I was applying for university all my girlfriends had to stay in Calgary while their male cousins and brothers were allowed to apply for university outside of Calgary. So I was maybe one or two of the Punjabi girls in my class that left Calgary and moved to Kelowna for my undergraduate degree and now to Worcester, Massachusetts. That's all because my mom didn’t stop me. Nani in the past did show preference for her sons over her daughters but through growth and learning, she doesn’t do that with the grandchildren. 

Naaz: Do you think racism and sexism are connected when thinking about how South Asian women are treated in Canada?

Nani-ji: I experienced racism and so did your nana. His advantage though was that he knew English so he would just make friends with all the gora (white people), teach them about the culture, etc. I didn’t have that opportunity because I didn’t know English right away. Once I also knew English I could become friends with the gora too and they taught me things about the Canadian lifestyle and I taught them things about the Indian lifestyle. Your nana had the option to get mad when he experienced racism…I couldn’t. But I mean go to any country and you will see differences in how people are treated whether it is race, sex…anything really. You have to be able to have a conversation with people and become friends with them, teach them.

Harjit Auntie-ji: I think Jasmine pegged it right on the nail. I have seen it with my own eyes before. I have a friend who is a young Indian man and he drives a nice car that he worked hard for. But the cops pull him over all the time and he’s done nothing wrong. He’s getting targeted simply because he is a South Asian male and the police, plus the rest of society, has stereotyped brown munde (boys) to be drug dealers in Canada. As a South Asian woman, I think I see this relationship between racism and sexism in the workplace. If I was to go to an interview for the same job as a South Asian man, he would get hired over me any time. We also struggle with internalized racism and sexism in our community. It roots from a history of colonialism, imperialism, and the British taking over India but we continue to let it happen. So many times I’ve heard Punjabi men go “God I would never let my wife do that” like excuse me?! 

Jasmine: I think it depends on where you are. If you look at police brutality our boys experience it more in Canada, especially if they live in areas like Surrey, Calgary, and Brampton. If a brown boy is driving a nice car the automatic assumption is that he’s gotta be a drug dealer or part of a gang. What if he is just driving his mom’s car? So in terms of racism and sexism, I think our Punjabi men do experience it more than Punjabi women do, especially when confronted by the police. 

Naaz: Harjit Auntie-ji, we’ve had conversations before about the racism you’ve experienced in Canada. Do you think racism has changed in Canada? What type of racism did you experience when you first immigrated here? What does it look like now? 

Harjit Auntie: When I moved to Canada I was really young like maybe a year or year and a half old. In my school, there were only two other Indian kids and the rest were Caucasians. I experienced a lot of racism and was called many names, like Paki. My parents built confidence in me, and your uncles, so I had a strong personality and I didn’t let the name calling bug me. The racism I did experience came from white students that were not well off, from smaller communities, and weren't exposed to a lot of diversity. I would go to the counselor and they would say things like “those children come from troubled homes so that is why they are taking it out on you”. But why weren’t they taking it out on other students then, the students that were white? I still remember this one time in grade 8 a boy was walking behind me in the hallway, calling me Paki, and I just turned around and punched him. I stood up for myself like I was taught to and quickly other students of color became friends with me so they wouldn’t get bullied either. So I kind of became a protector of sorts. Now in the later part of my life having lived in Calgary and Brampton where there is a large South Asian presence I think I either don’t experience it or am just oblivious to it. I will say there has been a lot of progression from 1974 to 2022 but we still have a ways to go. 

Naaz: Jasmine, as a first generation Canadian, have you experienced racism and how have you navigated that?

Jasmine: I grew up in northeast Calgary which has a very large South Asian community. So I was lucky in the sense that I didn’t experience it growing up. What I did experience was internalized racial oppression from the Punjabi community. I am a darker-skinned Punjabi girl so I would always get comments on how my skin wasn’t “fair” or “white” enough. It bugged me a lot but nan (nani-ji) and mom raised me to be strong and independent like they are and to fight my battles. I experienced a lot of racism when I moved to Kelowna for my undergraduate degree, especially working at the bank. Caucasian people would wait in line for a Caucasian teller even though I was clearly available. It was so weird because I was 18 at the time and trying to make sense of it all. That’s just evidence of the power in numbers. If you are in a community like Brampton, northeast Calgary, or Surrey there is a large presence so you may not feel it to the full extent. I think ultimately people like mom, nani, nana did take a stand and showed the rest of Canada that we deserve to be in this country too so our generation feels it less. I won’t sit here and say it's gone away though. It's still here, it just depends on where you are living. 

Naaz: Why do you think racism is more prevalent in smaller communities, like Kelowna or Vernon, versus larger metropolitans, like Vancouver or Toronto? 

Harjit Auntie-ji: I think it's due to a lack of exposure and knowledge. People in smaller communities tend to be more sheltered and live in their niche. For that reason, they may not be open to other cultures. Even look at things outside of race. Take sexuality for example. It's harder being a gay person in a small community because of the lack of acceptance and knowledge. 

Jasmine: I think it's also due to a lack of resources. If you don’t have the resources for the knowledge to be given then it's going to be harder to learn right? Can we really fault people for not knowing when there is such a scarcity of resources? That doesn’t excuse people from not learning though. It's 2022 and most people in smaller communities have access to the internet and can learn…they just have to be willing to. We also have to reach out to those smaller communities and provide those resources. 

Naaz: The workplace has been brought up a few times in our interview. Has there been a time where you have been passed on for a promotion or not treated right in the workplace because you are a South Asian female?

Harjit Auntie: Not so much in Calgary. I was the first South Asian female to become a branch manager, featured in newspapers, everything so that was awesome. Come to Brampton though and the whole area is saturated with South Asians. And I hate to say this but in Calgary, I had more support from non-South Asians who uplifted me in becoming a branch manager. So sadly it was our own people putting us down, especially the men. So how can we fight against racism and sexism when our own community is putting us down?

Naaz: Nani-ji and Harjit Auntie, how was it for you as an immigrant mother raising girls in Canada? How did you balance the integration of both Canadian and South Asian culture?

Nani-ji: We knew it was important to teach our girls about living in Canada. We moved to Golden where the population was predominantly white. So we knew we had to teach our children for them to survive in this white town. It was hard in the beginning. We didn’t know the lifestyle, and we didn’t know English but with the support of some people, we were able to make it work. I learned enough to get by in the beginning. Your nana never went to the parent-teacher interviews…I always did and that was tough. I would have to piece things together with the limited English I did know and the teachers were rarely accommodating. But at the end of the day, it all worked out beautifully and look at where all my girls are now. 

Harjit Auntie: I think the most important thing for me was breaking down the sexism within our community first so I always treated Ajay [Jasmine’s brother] and Jasmine the same. It was also important to me for my children to see that we all come from different walks of life and different countries and have different beliefs…that's what makes Canada multicultural. So we have to embrace our culture and I’ve taught my children the dance, the food, the outfits, and everything about India. At the same time, I knew it was important for my kids to embrace Canadian culture because at the end of the day we live in this country. I remember when I was growing up mom (nani-ji) actually learned to sew a skirt for me for a Christmas concert. She knew how important it was for me and taught herself how to do that. If we wouldn’t have taught our children about Canadian culture then they wouldn’t have been successful. They were going to be taught English regardless but no one was going to teach them Punjabi. So you know, you have to be Canadian but our culture is beautiful, and finding that balance can be hard but we can all do it. 

Naaz: Jasmine, as a first generation Canadian, how has it been integrating the dominant Canadian culture with your own heritage and cultural background? How was it balancing the East vs the West, the brown vs the white?

Jasmine: I think growing up at home I was exposed equally to both cultures because my parents intentionally did it that way. They would show us a lot about Western culture, like the Calgary Stampede. At the same time, my dadi (paternal grandmother) and nani would teach me to speak Punjabi when I stayed with them. I would go to the gurdwara (Sikh temple) and learn about religion. When I went to school I was very lucky in the sense that my school was 70% apna (apna = our people) but even within that I would sometimes be told by my own peers that I was too white. But then my skin tone was too dark so I was like what do I do? I was in this space where I felt like I always had to prove to apna that I am Punjabi and proud of it. I started doing bhangra (a form of Punjabi folk dance) and got really good at it. And we used our platform to highlight that brown girls can also do bhangra and don't just have to stick to gidha (a form of Punjabi folk dance) because that's another sexist thing that happens in our community. As I got older I realized how important it was for me to hold onto my roots and own them. I was very lucky because I was surrounded by people that embraced both sides of it. I had my nana who would teach us about culture and religion and then I had my mom who taught me to be a strong, independent woman. Then I met you [Naaz] in university and you taught me the importance of balancing it all and not forgetting where we come from so I think I’ve just been very lucky. What started as a battle of being too white or too Indian didn’t matter to me anymore. What mattered was that I could be Canadian but still be an integral part of the South Asian community.

Naaz: Do you think people from dominant Canadian culture were open to you embracing your Punjabi culture or do you feel like you were pressured to assimilate into Canadian culture?

Jasmine: So I think growing up one of the biggest ways my mom made sure we loved our culture was through food. I mean our food is delicious (it really truly is)! So mom would always make us these great Indian dishes for lunch but taking them to school would be so embarrassing. My Caucasian classmates would always make fun of the smell or the appearance. I remember this one time very clearly in the first grade my mom got me this beautiful kurta to wear for class pictures. But I didn’t want to, so I fought her on it. I kept saying “I am going to get bullied” but mother was insistent and I wore it to school. And I was right…the second I got to school everyone looked at me differently and I was ashamed of it. Mother didn’t hear these kinds of things but I heard it all the time at school. Now I look at the picture and I look pretty cute! And like I said before, as I got older I had more of an appreciation for my culture and I was able to revert to who I truly am. So now I take it upon myself to educate others around me. I was able to change the narrative from being bullied all the time to sharing my culture with others. So it's definitely changed but there was a lot of bullying and it was hard growing up. 

Harjit Auntie-ji: I knew they were having a hard time in school but I also  knew I was shaping my kids to be better adults. We can say it's the inside that matters but really on the outside you are South Asian and people are going to identify you that way. I look at some kids now who weren’t taught about their culture. They can’t speak a word of Punjabi, they don’t like Indian food, and they are embarrassed by their culture. Their parents didn’t teach them the beauty of it like I taught my children. Unfortunately, we have to go through these hardships to this day. I wish it wasn’t that way but it is. 

Naaz: What is needed to help address racism towards South Asians in Canada?

Harjit Auntie: I think to address racism means we have to go beyond tolerating it. And honestly, I think education is key. Education means more awareness of what is happening in our country. Also, be proud of who you are, and be proud of your culture. The more you hide away from it…the more you are letting racism win. 

Jasmine: I think empowerment is also very important. We have to empower ourselves and each other. Like my mother said there are kids out there that are my age who don’t acknowledge their religion or culture. Why can’t we do both? We talk about Canada being a diverse country for a reason, so showcase it and be loud about it. Don’t back down like mother said because if we back down we are already losing the battle. I also feel like we get embarrassed by our parents and grandparents. When we go out in public we will say things like “don’t do that”, “this is embarrassing” or “don’t act this way”. What you are forgetting is they made it here, they experienced their own battles. They made it on their own two feet so we didn’t have to struggle like them and now you are trying to shun them like the rest of society? If anything we should be embracing our parents and grandparents and showing them off. Also having lived in a small town like Kelowna I think education is huge. There aren’t enough resources. There isn’t enough diversity in those communities. Yes we have a gurdwara in Kelowna and it's beautiful but they just started doing Nagar Kirtaans when we first moved there for university. There’s a lack of resources, there’s nowhere to go for anyone who has experienced racism, and so forth. We were lucky enough in school that we had things like the Peer Support Network but we were spearheading that together so we were the ones creating resources for others. We need services geared towards people of color in smaller towns, we need events and clubs showcasing the diversity, we just simply need more resources. 

Naaz: How can someone be an ally for the South Asian community?

Harjit Auntie-ji: I mean do what I did. I saw kids get picked on at school for their race and I stood up for them. But you can put yourself in danger if you do that so I would suggest assessing the situation first. I think things like what you are doing, sharing the voices of South Asian women, putting it on a website, and spreading awareness and education are ways to be an ally. Another way is starting education from home. I would always take Ajay and Jasmine to go volunteer during Christmas or at shelters so they were aware of the true realities of Canada. I also made sure my children ate everything and were exposed to different cultural foods. Racism starts from home. Kids pick up on the comments and conversations more than you think. So I think we need to be aware of what we are saying at home, have those conversations, and communicate safely and properly. 

Jasmine: I think being open to education is just as important as educating others. Be willing to learn from your peers and be open to experiences. One of my biggest pet peeves is someone saying no before they have even tried something. My way of connecting with people is through food. I have a diverse group of friends and we always share cultural dishes. Another way you can be an ally is by listening. Be open-minded and hear about our stories, hear about our struggles, and more importantly believe in us. Don’t tell us we are looking too into it or exaggerating. You did not experience what that person did so just be kind and empathic. I’ve seen some of our elders also be racist towards other cultures. My brother and I are the first to educate our elders about different cultures. So I think it's important for us as South Asians to also be allies for other people of color. 

Harjit Auntie-ji: And you know what I am honored to learn from my kids! They have taught me things and helped me change my mindset about some cultures. For example, I used to have this mindset that my children are Indian so therefore can only marry Indian but over time through education and hearing from my children I thought to myself “why”? We get so caught up on what other people are going to say (log kya kahenge am I right?) that we don’t realize we are being racist too. So we talk about experiencing racism but we are actually being racist towards others and I am guilty of it too. So it goes both ways. Take a step back, think about what you are saying, why you are saying it, and have a conversation with others. 

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about your culture?

Harjit Auntie-ji: It's not always just butter chicken and naan (it's “naan” people. NOT “naan bread”...just “naan”). Our culture goes beyond that. Yes, sexism exists but there are people like my dad who empower our women and break down these stereotypes. I know how to check the oil and washer fluid in my car and I can make amazing saabji but that's because my dad was breaking down that vicious cycle. 

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about South Asian women?

Jasmine: Ohh that is a tough one. I wish people knew just how strong we really are. South Asian women are bearing it all. We bear the sexism and racism from the gora but also the sexism from home. South Asian women make the world work and sacrifice so much for their families. I think you, and I, are both in a position where we have strong, amazing mothers who have sacrificed so much, given so much, and asked for nothing in return. So I think if there’s anything I want the world to know about South Asian women is that we are pretty hype, we are strong, we carry so much and we still get it all done. 

Final Messages

Jasmine’s Final Message: Treat others the way you want to be treated. Before you judge others, have a conversation with them. It never hurts to have a chaa da cup and see what their life is like. I think we live in a society where we are too quick to judge and attack people. So it's important to be kind, take a step back, and just listen. So that’s my final message: Be open to conversations and be open to learning from others. 

Harjit Auntie’s Final Message: My message to everyone out there is to be who you are. Be proud of your heritage and don’t hide it. Teach our future generations about our culture because if we don’t no one else will and our culture will die with them. It's ok that we are in Canada. You can be Canadian and South Asian at the same time. There's nothing wrong with being South Asian and there's nothing wrong with being Canadian. We are all here living in this country so let's embrace it together. 

Nani-ji’s final message: First of all I am just glad you young kids are creating opportunities where our voices can be heard. Secondly, I think it's important to learn your language. That way you can communicate and learn from your Elders. And if you are an Elder be open to learning from your grandchildren. They have a lot of wisdom too.