Meet the Dhadli Women

Participants: Ravinder Kaur Dhadli & Jagreet Dhadli

Naaz: Do you think racism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Ravinder Mussi-ji: It happens in Canada and it happened in the past too. I still see people discriminating against others…and I have faced it many times. It's a good thing you are bringing it up and making people aware about it. We need more people talking about it and dealing with the issue.

Juggy: Okay, sooo… Canada was built off racism, whether its the genocide of Indigeous people, policies against Chinese people, policies against South Asians, Komagata Maru etc. For example, why was Hogan’s Alley in Vancouver bulldozed? Because they didn’t want a thriving black community. It's our history and you see it every day quite literally in our cities and architecture. 

Naaz: Do you think race and sex are connected when thinking about how South Asian males are treated in Canada versus South Asian females?

Juggy: The prevalence of internalized racism is a function of externalized racism. What happens in our community then helps perpetuate those stereotypes. We can’t point the fingers at ourselves either though because there is still bigotry out there. My brother will probably have to navigate different cultural norms and expectations than I do as a woman. And then he has to take those stereotypes, labels, and expectations, internalize them and navigate the outside world with them. For example, when he goes out my parents will say “Ajit be careful, don’t get into the wrong company” because there is that internalized fear he’s going to join a gang. Valid, considering all the recent public shootings out here. But then he has to navigate it all externally to, proving to the rest of the world that he isn’t one of the bad apples.

Then I think of myself as a South Asian woman. A lot of women were laborers back home. Our ancestors were laborers and as a result, we get exploited within our families and communities. Then as a whole, you see coloured women equate to free labour by white folks so we get paid less, and we get considered less for leadership positions. I’ve been in so many jobs where South Asian women were qualified for higher paying jobs or promotions, who knew the ins and outs of the programs, who were already going above their required roles but they constantly got pushed aside so white men could go prosper. I can see a link between racism and sexism.

Naaz: Mussi-ji you mentioned that you had to work long hours meaning you were away from your children lots of the time plus uncle was gone for long periods of time for work. Growing up we have seen that South Asian mothers often have this unique duo role of working during the day and then coming home and working again taking care of the kids. So taking that into consideration, do you think racism and sexism are connected in how South Asian women are treated in Canada?

Ravinder Mussi-ji: Yes and no. I think we have to look at our culture first. I have seen a lot of families where they work, work, work because they want to financially provide everything for the kids. So spending quality time with kids was never a thing and our kids lacked love and support from us. There are some cultures, including ours, that think if the gender is male then they are kings and males dominate. There are people back home that have that same mentality and then they bring it here. Like I know this bebi (grandma) and baba (grandpa) who came from India and work on the farms. They both come home at the same time, but baba has a couple of drinks of daru (alcohol) and swears at the woman. And then, you know, after he eats and goes to sleep. But for the bebi she has to wash the clothes, clean the house, and prepare the meal for the next day. I see that stuff in my son and your uncle sometimes too so our own culture is still male-dominated and doesn't treat our women right. 

Naaz: Mussi-ji, do you think racism has changed in Canada? What type of racism did you experience when you first immigrated here? What does it look like now? 

Ravinder Mussi-ji: It's changed a little bit. People are more aware of us, like who is Chinese, who comes from Pakistan, etc. I can give you one example. Around 1986 - 1987 I used to work in a parking lot part-time, just over the weekends, at the hospital. So you know back then you had to pay on your way out. So this guy didn’t want to pay and I think eventually he did but I remember him yelling “you fucking Paki”. So I was kind of confused at that time. Like why was he calling me a Paki when I was from India? So then slowly I talked to a couple of people, especially white people, and they explained to me that at that time people didn’t know the difference. So slowly, not only do they know who is from India but they know who is Punjabi, who is Gujarati, etc. So yeah there's change but racism is still here. Now the country needs people and we are short on labor. So they hire immigrants to do the labor jobs, the dirty jobs…the jobs white people don’t want. In white-collar jobs, like management or CEO, you mostly see white people and they don’t even have as much education as some immigrants do. I see female and male sexual discrimination too in who they hire. We also see international students coming for work and they don’t have many options either. So yeah, discrimination is still there. 

Naaz: Juggy, as a first generation Canadian, have you experienced racism and how have you navigated that?

Juggy: Growing up I had a lot of white teachers but I remember this one TA named Rashmi in elementary school. I actually have the card she wrote for me at the end of that school year…it's in my childhood album. I kept it because she was the first person who said my name properly. I think we are truly standing on the shoulders of giants. What our parents' generation have done for us is that they were following this model minority, which we can say is becoming a myth now, but it wasn’t for them. You had to follow this model minority blueprint in order to survive, which helped us thrive as a community. Look at Surrey, look at how many businesses and plazas there are. We have our own business magazines, and our own business awards, We haven’t assimilated as a people. But now what I am seeing is internal racism in the community and casteism. As if we aren’t settlers. We are landless people, and we are on the land of First Nations People of Turtle Island. I am a product of a genocide happening to my people in Punjab, which is why there were no opportunities in Punjab…so mom left and dad followed. Now I am on this land where genocide happened to the people that have lived here before me so I am a product of genocide here too and I have to navigate that. So things like caste no longer apply when you leave the homeland.
I understand we are a closed culture but I found myself suffocating in that. When my friends were only South Asian it created these harmful conversations (about caste, gossip, rumours) and this is the only world I would end up knowing; as a result, what was I really learning? Nothing. I wasn’t developing as a person anymore. When I opened up my circle and life again to more cultures I would hear my parents say “don't hang out with these people because they smell” and in turn, my friend’s parents would say “don’t hang out with these folk because they smell” so we minority cultures are just doing it to ourselves. At the end of it all though, I remain confused because we have this intercultural bullshit battle but we are all being treated the same by white folks. We are all minorities struggling in this system together that has told us we have no place in it. It’s tiring, man.

Naaz: Do you think intercultural racism is happening because of the colonial systems in place or do you think it comes from a place of being vulnerable and being scared of releasing ourselves out to the world again because of the way our South Asian community was treated 20-30 years ago?

Juggy: I think it's a combination of both but I always believe we can coexist. Every day our challenge is to coexist. Competition, harming others needlessly doesn’t make sense to me. We are attached to our cultures so for me there is no way to lose our cultures by just mixing and getting to know others.

Ravinder Mussi-ji: I can’t really speak on that because it wasn’t relevant to us. We lived for a few years in areas where a large Punjabi population lived. I felt like it was better to be surrounded by diversity where you live or where your kids go to school so they have exposure to different cultures and religions. Each religion and culture have good and bad sides so kids need to learn about that. Take Khalsa School for example. Back then I heard the kids were intelligent because there was a one-on-one focus, they were very good at English and mathematics and excelled in their education. On the other hand, though, they were learning gaalan (swear words) and their manners were not appropriate so we decided to move to a community that had mixed cultures. But don’t get me wrong there was a struggle in that too. I still heard from teachers that students were come in smelling like Punjabi tadka or daal. If your foundation is strong at home and you’re teaching your children about your culture it doesn’t matter where you live. At the same time, they can learn good things about other cultures. 

Naaz: Do you think the racism first generation South Asian Canadians experience is different from the racism  South Asians immigrants experience? 

Ravinder Mussi-ji: Yes it is. We (as immigrants coming to this country) were not educated here. We weren’t aware of the other cultures when we came here. We had financial problems as well. So instead of going to school to learn English, we had to pick it up from work. That meant our English was poor, our education was not at the level it should have been and back home we didn’t have computers and stuff either. Whereas people born here as First Generation Canadians are educated here, they are exposed to different cultures, and they have studied multiple areas. 

Juggy: I agree with mom absolutely. Her generation and immigrants from the 70s, 80s and 90s had it a lot harder than us because they had to make it to survive. Putting yourself in survival mode is preparing every day for those attacks because you never know when or where they are going to come from. I remember this interview that I did with Nav Bhatia and he put it so eloquently when he said “what we have built, we have built for you but we have navigated through these challenges so your generation will never have to face them”. But I think a lot of us saw our parents go through these challenges so we made it our own battle. Our parents were forced to play the game that we do not have to play anymore. It's a mixed bag though; some people in our generation still conform to and fall into the pressure, the pitfalls. The racism is definitely different and it was definitely harder for our parents; the challenges were also a lot harder. Our unique challenge is the mental, emotional, and psychological violence that comes with racism. The racism has become invisible, it's more subtle than confrontational and in your face like it was for our parents but I think that's a lot of what Canada is right? People say all the time Canada isn’t racist. Canada is racist…we just smile in your face as we insult you and leave. 

Naaz: We’ve seen a shift in representation at the highest level of government. I mean, the leader of the NDP party is a Sikh Punjabi man. Do you think this will shift the narrative about South Asians in Canada? 

Ravinder Mussi-ji: Yes, yes it will. The leader (Jagmeet Singh) is trying to change something and there will be positive results. We are going to gain more respect and more acknowledgment for who we are. This is why education is so important so that people like Jagmeet can get to these high places of power and help create change. The Canadians born here learn about the education system here and even people coming from abroad are learning more and more. Even with Trudeau, we see more women in his cabinet which encourages other people. 

Juggy: The system still hasn’t changed. We are still trying to navigate an aggressive system and I think there is a lot of stuff behind the scenes we don’t know about. We see the media coverage and the endless press conferences but you’re not seeing the day-to-day challenges that for example, Jagmeet Singh would have to navigate compared to his racist right-wing counterparts. Nonetheless, thanks to Jagmeet coming into Parliament and stating “my name is Jagmeet.” The power that held for a lot of racial minorities remains effective today. We see someone and we can go, “hey, he looks like me.”

Naaz: Why do you think people don’t report incidents of racism? What stops people from reporting to the RCMP, government agencies etc?

Ravinder Mussi-ji: We come from India where you can murder a guy and get away with it as long as you have connections or money. We have that same kind of mentality here, that nothing is going to happen so why bother reporting it? The second thing is we are busy, we don’t have the courage, and we have language barriers. We are focused on saving the job, and saving the house so we choose to move on and dismiss it as people just being crazy. Sometimes we don’t trust the systems in place. Sometimes it happens so often that it becomes habitual to just ignore it and put our walls up to protect ourselves. Instead, we should be making people aware of the tools and resources available…not just putting a bandaid on it. 

Naaz: What do you think is needed to help address racism in Canada? What do we need to do as Canadians to help create change?

Ravinder Mussi-ji: I think governments and employers need to focus on being more inclusive in their hiring practices. We see more immigrants coming to Canada and we should be hiring them for management and supervision. We are just as qualified as the next white guy. Secondly, if people do complain and report it, it should be handled properly. That way people gain more faith in the system and have the courage to go report. In schooling as well. If some kids make a joke or remark there should be some sort of punishment for that and they should be educated on why that was bad to say. 

Juggy: I think because every situation is so unique and there are many different variables and factors it really comes down to the principles of cultural sensitivity and equity which starts when we are young and from home.

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about South Asian culture?

Ravinder Mussi-ji: I think I would like people to learn how family-orientated we are and the benefits that come from that. It makes families financially stronger, kids don’t need daycare, and get the chance to learn so much from their grandparents. And second, our culture is so rich. Our festivals are beautiful, our weddings are a month long and we love to party. 

Naaz: What is one thing you wish people knew about South Asian women?

Juggy: Even if we seem like we are oppressed, do not mistake that for us being weak. Yes, we are taught to be meek, but that does not make us weak as people. Some of the strongest women I know are women who are suffering in silence. South Asian women don’t have community support like other women do in other cultures that are a little more progressive with women’s rights. There isn’t enough camaraderie within our community. We internalize this and blame women for being weak, labeling them as not being good enough for the man, for the family, to be friends and allies to other women, or for society. And I think that’s a gross misrepresentation. We are far from any of that. 

Final Messages

Mussi-ji’s Final Message: For South Asian women coming to Canada, know that you came to a free country, it's not India anymore. So if you feel pressure, know there is a lot of support out there. Keep faith in yourself and always try your best. 

Juggy’s Final Message: We all come from One Source and we are all going to return to that One Source. Life is about what you make it out to be for you. The story you choose to tell yourself about yourself and your life every day. All these rules and regulations we’ve created are restrictions, illusions, and they’re not real. At the end of the day, they don’t define who we are. We get to define who we are, through our actions, by our principles, our values, and how we act on them – like, how we treat other people. Working on ourselves is a lifelong commitment and I think we have to commit to fearlessly learning about ourselves, and evolving. We also gotta learn how to be more self-aware of our experience as a stream of consciousness, and how it merges into a collective consciousness each and every day. Until we get comfortable with the idea of our own existence being in the same realm as others in existence – none of the shit that we know as injustice and prejudice and racism will correct itself. So change starts with us, but it’s a commitment we must sign up for with every fibre of our being.