Meet the Gill Women

Participants: Sarabjit Bhua-ji and Rav

Naaz: Do you think racism occurs in Canada?

Rav: I think it exists in Canada. We are a diverse country, with a lot of different people from different backgrounds. This means there are going to be people that have different mindsets than us. Maybe some of us just aren’t as open to other cultures, maybe they come from a sheltered childhood, or whatever their reasons may be. They are used to it being only one subset of people and seeing a diverse version of other humans might be a problem for them so they might exert racism. I think we aren’t educated enough about other cultures. So things that seem foreign are automatically labeled and we dislike it. Therefore, we hate people without even learning about them first. 

Sarabjit Bhua-ji: I completely agree. I think there is a judgment put on people and we stamp it as good or not good. 

Naaz: Do you think sexism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Rav: I think so to some extent, especially in our Punjabi community. There is still some preference for men over women. A good example of this is the birth rates of girls versus boys in our community. New immigrants come here with the same old values of carrying the lineage forward and preferring boys over girls because they think men can do more things in life. There's a sense of comfort and pride in having a boy in our community. I know in our family, the extended family members put pressure on my mom to have a boy after giving birth to two girls. They went to such extreme lengths like shipping my mom off to India and making her take medications, herbal teas, etc to make sure the fetus was a boy. That is changing now as our generation has children. I think with my generation there is still that glass ceiling but we are bending it slowly. May not break it yet but we are starting to create opportunities that mom didn’t have when she came to Canada. I don’t have to start from rock bottom like mom and other immigrant moms had to. I have an advantage being born in Canada but I am still three steps behind the white males, white females, and men of color. Over time we are beginning to knock down the barriers but they still exist. 

Naaz: Do you think racism and sexism are connected when thinking about how South Asian women are treated in Canada?

Rav: Back in the day there was that stereotype that South Asian women stay home and take care of their kids and their life is just within those four walls. But I think women now are expected to work and take care of the kids plus the house. Things didn’t get taken out…more things got added on. So now it's more of a shock when women my age aren’t working. There is still a bit of an expectation because we have taught girls to be more proactive and to take care of the house alongside studying alongside working. Our men aren’t being taught that and expect things to be done for them. 

Sarabjit Bhua-ji: Plus I think it's different between generations too. Back in my day, my husband was the leader of the house. So I had to make the food, take the dishes to the table…do everything aside from putting the actual food in his mouth. But with Rav and Sunny [Sunny is Rav’s husband and Sarabjit Bhua-ji’s son] it's 50/50. I think people my age will continue to be this way but your generation is changing that. 

Naaz: Do you think the racism our South Asian men experience is different from that of South Asian women?

Rav: It's hard to differentiate that now because I think of myself as an equal to Sunny so I carry myself in that way. I think if I was taken out of Vancouver, where there is a huge Punjabi and South Asian presence, into a smaller town  I would see that shift where people might think that Sunny is more capable of doing things and taking care of me. But living in Surrey I don’t feel that as often. One point I will bring up though is that with our generation we see a lot of gang violence. I think this is connected to the sexism we see in our community plus the internalized racism we experience. We see a lot of the first generation Punjabi boys not treating Punjabi girls equally because they learned that it's okay to abuse girls. For example, a lot of Punjabi women killed in the Lower Mainland are killed because they try to escape this gang lifestyle or break up with a boy who is immersed in that lifestyle. Take Maple Bhatalia or Kiran Dhesi for example. All they were trying to do was break up with their boyfriends. It's because Punjabi boys continue to see women in their life get abused and not get any help or support for it. However, if those Punjabi boys are dating white girls, the white girl has the option to leave safely most of the time. I think that has to do with our mindset of putting Punjabi and South Asian women in boxes. There's almost this expectation that it will fly with South Asian women but if it's someone outside of the culture the boy that is exerting the abuse is “in trouble”. For the Punjabi girl, the biggest worry becomes her parents finding out, the shame it will bring to her community or her family, etc. So we see intersectionality between externalized racism from the dominant Canadian culture, internalized racism, and sexism and how that affects the South Asian community. 

Sarabjit Bhua-ji: Women are capable of doing everything men can do and more. Even back home we want to pretend like we treat boys and girls equally but we don’t. When it comes down to it, boys are always put on the pedestal and girls get left behind. This means less education for the girls, fewer chances to succeed and then they do get stuck at home as Rav said. 

Naaz: Bhua-ji, we’ve had conversations before about the racism you’ve experienced in Canada. Do you think racism has changed in Canada? What type of racism did you experience when you first immigrated here? What does it look like now? 

Bhua: Yes, it's very different. Back then the thought was that Indian people didn’t have an education, our living standards weren’t hygienic, our women didn’t leave the house, etc. You didn’t have the energy to fight back against it so it became normalized. We didn’t have the energy to fight it because we were dealing with culture shock, working day in and day out trying to create a life for our children and we came from nothing. Now, I would say it's still there but like 25% of the time. For example, in my workplace there is a gora (white man) and if he had the power he would kick out all the Indian women that worked there because he doesn’t like our race. I think it's just the mindset and some people won’t change. I have worked in that job for 14 years alongside this gora and we do the same things, and work the same way but he still makes stupid comments. Sometimes I want to slap him over the head because it gets too much. So yeah it's changed but it's still here…too much of it is still around because some people don’t want to or don’t care to change their mindset. 

Naaz: Rav, as a first generation Canadian, have you experienced racism and how have you navigated that?

Rav: I would think so. I think growing up I was a little bit embarrassed about being Punjabi. You know what I mean with the oil in your hair, the 2 guut (ponytails), smelling like Punjabi tadka. And then you would hear things like “look at those Punjabis who don’t have a standard of living”, “look at their small houses” or “they are taking our jobs away” blatantly all the time. I would also think to myself, ``Do you want to drive a taxi?”. These people were doctors, engineers, and lawyers back home. I don’t see white people in Canada wanting to do the dirty work. You should be happy people are coming here and doing the work you don’t want to do. So I think we are still dealing with that. What I see more of on the rise is brown-on-brown hate. I’ve even had to catch myself doing it a couple of times. We have international students coming here from India who have a different standard of living than the first-generation brown kids born here and we, alongside the rest of Canada, are putting them in a box. We have started to judge our own people that are new to Canada instead of helping and supporting them. The shift to reduce the stigma though is changing. My mindset can change but someone like the white guy mom works with is never going to change. No matter how much mom tries to convince him, no matter how much the women at her work rally up against him, he won’t care but my generation can and will catch ourselves and reflect on our biases. 

Naaz: Why do you think that shift has occurred? Why has our generation been able to become more aware of our biases and reflect on it?

Rav: I think back to when our parents came here. I saw what they went through. Whatever my mom did, I also did. Whatever my mom wore, I wore. So I saw my mom go through her struggle and I don’t want to continue having those biases about immigrants coming to this country. I wish I could go back to all the bullies in elementary school and tell them to shut up and stand up for myself. Now growing up I am proud to be who I am and I am proud of my culture. That is why I think awareness and education are so important. Had I had my blinders on I would have continued the stigma and the stereotypes. 

Naaz: Bhua-ji, how was it for you as an immigrant mother raising your sons in Canada? How did you balance the integration of both Canadian and South Asian culture?

Bhua: It was hard. I wanted my kids to know the religion and know how to speak Punjabi. I knew when my kids were going to go out in the world and into school they were going to be taught English but who was going to teach them Punjabi? We lived in Victoria when Sunny was growing up so he was surrounded more by white people and it was a harsher atmosphere there so he didn’t have many opportunities to learn. When we moved to Surrey he learned from his mussis (mother’s sisters), mamis (mother’s sisters-in-law) and mamas (mother’s brother), bibi (grandmother), and baba (grandfather). He even went to Punjabi classes and now he knows how to write his name in Punjabi

Fun fact: Sunny only survived one day in Punjabi school and then got kicked out

Naaz: Rav, as a first generation Canadian, how has it been integrating the dominant Canadian culture with your own heritage and cultural background? How was it balancing the East vs the West, the brown vs the white?

Rav: Growing up I had two personalities: Rav at home and cool kid Rav at school. Integrating the two was difficult. I remember mom trying to make me lunch I wanted for school one day but there was a smell of sabji in my sandwich. So even though I was eating Western food it still smelt Indian. I spoke Punjabi and English and Punjabi was predominantly spoken at home. My dad made sure we learned about religion, there was Punjabi programming on the TV, roti every day, and maybe pizza on the weekends. So my “split personality” came from trying to balance what I was learning at school and the Western values versus the Eastern values my mom and dad were trying to teach us. I was embarrassed about my culture in elementary school because you try so hard to be Canadian, whatever that even means. Like, was I supposed to eat what they [dominant culture students] were eating? Was I supposed to talk back to my parents like they were? You pick up on those things and you try them at home and we all know how the Child Protection Service stories go [if you don’t know go check out Hasan Minaj]. When I entered high school I had two Punjabi friends and being Punjabi kurya (girls) we had to hide a lot of things. We had to hide our make-up and our clothes, we would tie up our hair at home and let it down the second we got to school, the kinds of things that we all had to do as South Asian girls. University is what changed me. I had proven to my parents that I was capable of taking care of myself in a different country but still had close ties to my culture and religion, especially being a brown girl. So I think overall it was just expected that I would balance both. Mom and dad were responsible for the stuff at home and I was on my own to face the rest of the world.

Naaz: Do you think the media perpetuates racism towards the South Asian community? 

Rav: I think the news is sensational…the more sensational it is, the more likely it is to break the news. Like if you see a successful Punjabi author you might see it in fine print on the left-hand side of a website or newspaper but you never see it in the main headlines because it doesn’t attract the viewers.  But then we see headlines of marginalized groups, like South Asians, being violent or involved in drugs. These groups of people are already stereotyped that way in society so the news continues to confirm peoples’ biases and add more fuel to the flame. Like here’s another story for you to support your stereotypes, to allow people to continue adding people to boxes, and to cement their pre-existing beliefs. Unfortunately, though, that further adds to the marginalization of people and makes it harder to break that cycle. This is why I think education is so important! I think everyone should do some kind of formal education after high school where they can develop critical thinking skills and be able to compare good media and bad media. If you are getting your information from one source then that's all you are learning. But if you can think critically, and do your own research, then maybe this won’t seem as sensational as the media tries to make it. I wish there was a more critical way of examining the news but unfortunately, most of it is just clickbait. The crazier the headline, the more likes you are going to get on Instagram and let’s be real you’re only going to read the caption. So it's confirming what you already think...brown people suck and that's that. 

Naaz: Speaking of media, how do you feel about South Asian representation in movies, TV shows etc.  Because we are in Canada, let's focus on Western media like Hollywood. Do you think we are properly represented in media, songs, movies?

Rav: I mean no. Look at Slumdog Millionaire for example. The whole movie was based around this narrative between the extremely poor and the extremely rich but India is so much more than that. I don’t think Hollywood is doing a good job. Even if you see people in Hollywood they are playing the stereotypical role of the taxi driver or whatever it may be. Plus we have Indian celebrities making fun of Indians, like Russell Peters, Lily Singh, and JusReign. They all love bashing on us. We are proud of the people’s accomplishments and the struggles they had to face as South Asian celebrities but at what cost? I know there are other IBPOC comedians out there who make fun of their culture too but all we are doing is perpetuating the stereotypes. There needs to be more variety. Plus I don't even think I’ve seen that many Punjabi actors in Hollywood. There are a lot of Hindi actors out there making a name for themselves, like Dev Patel for example, but even then they play stereotypical roles. There's a push and pull factor. You will see some people make it and they are representing our culture in a nice light and then some people are pushed into stereotypical roles because it makes sense. Why aren’t we seeing CEOs and managers in movies that are South Asian? I mean look at Mastercard, the CEO of Google…those guys are all brown, they represent our people but Hollywood won’t show you that. 

Naaz: Do you think South Asian celebrities that have made it have a responsibility to talk about racism?

Rav: I think I would rather them not. Maybe like isolated events but only if they know the information behind it. For example, let's take the Kisan movement [The Farmer’s Protest that occurred in India. For more information please visit https://standwithfarmers.carrd.co/]. Many celebrities weren’t talking about it and we gave them a bad rep for it. But honestly, I don't think celebrities need to tweet about it if they don’t know about it. I would rather have someone within the Kisan movement talk about it because they would be sharing factual information. A lot of these celebrities started off on their platform by making fun of their own people and now all of a sudden they are going to switch gears and care? They might get objections from people because of that. Even outside of South Asian celebrities I would rather people didn’t share about movements they didn’t know about. I mean look at Rihanna for example. Yes, it was amazing to see her tweet about the Kisaans but it took all the focus away from the Kisan movement and put the focus on her and she got all the views and content. There's so much energy that could have been put into what was actually important. So yes if you are involved with the movement, or whatever it may be, speak up about it. Otherwise, I would rather you didn’t. 

Naaz: Is there an opportunity to help address racism towards South Asian people in our education system?

Rav: I think building it directly into the school curriculum would be awesome! I mean we don’t even give enough awareness and importance to what happened to Indigenous Peoples in Canada. I remember growing up and learning about the Confederation, how Canada was built, Hudson’s Bay blah blah blah. But we never learned about the negative, dark side of Canada. The only thing I remember from high school about South Asians was Komogata Maru and even then it was watered down. People died because they were denied entry to this country and 40 years later we have one memorial in Downtown Vancouver and even then that gets vandalized every year. I don’t even think people know there was a whole Sikh battalion during World War Two and how many soldiers were forced to fight a war that wasn’t theirs. I know you can take language courses at UBC but there are no history courses. I think it would be awesome to see someone who has been able to get an education in Canada and then teach others about Punjabi history. I know we have mom guys here and I can ask them stories about Punjab but once they pass who is going to tell us the stories? I maybe know 25% of what they know. We won’t lose these stories if someone can document them and maybe start developing a curriculum based on them and other resources. If you do your own research, especially in this day and age, it can become biased. For example, if you look up the history of Punjab it might eventually lead you to information about Khalistan and it starts to become very political. We have such a big South Asian population here, and more specifically Punjabi Sikh population, so wouldn’t it make sense to educate the new upcoming generations about the people of Canada? Because we are the people that makeup Canada. 

Naaz: Aside from education, what do you think is needed to help address racism in Canada?

Rav: It all starts at home. We learn and absorb so much from our parents. We need to start having conversations at home. If someone is saying something racist or super discriminatory, instead of allowing it we need to stop and have a conversation. Ask the hard questions and it doesn’t need to be something formal. It just helps that person become more aware of why they are saying what they are saying. We have to reflect on where our biases are coming from and what is influencing them. There are a lot of resources and programs out there. You just have to put the effort in to find it. Take patriarchy and sexism within the Punjabi community. If Punjabi parents started to become more educated on topics like sexism then they are more likely to start talking to other Punjabi parents about it. Maybe at the gurdwara (Sikh temple), we can have a program that teaches parents how to treat boys and girls equally and then they can bring those values home. I think that would have a huge impact. 

Bhua: I agree. Kids are like plants. Whatever you water them with is what is going to make them grow. So whatever you say to them is going to influence how they behave and what they say. If a child sees parents fighting at home they are going to think it's normal and start doing it at school. So I agree with Rav…it all starts at home. 

Naaz: Where can someone go to learn more about South Asian culture?

Rav: I think the primary place to go would be the gurdwara but that would teach you more about religion. I don’t even know if there is anything in the public library. If I wanted to learn about French or Spanish culture I could easily go to the library and pick up a book but sadly I don’t think you can do the same for Punjabi culture. Linguistics wise there are resources like audio tapes on YouTube, language programs, courses, etc but to learn about Punjabi culture…I don’t know. I would probably suggest going directly to the source and going to someone in the community, like mom. 

Bhua: There are so many gurdwaras here in the Lower Mainland and they are welcoming of everyone regardless of caste, religion, culture, age, gender, etc so I would suggest going to the gurdwara and talking to someone. Some gurdwaras also have museums like The Ross Sikh Temple in Vancouver. I think gurdwaras should be responsible for making libraries where people can access resources. 

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about your culture?

Rav: I would want people to know how resilient we are and how dheet (brave, determined) we are. If we want to get something done we will get it done. There is a big perception we are lazy, we do labor jobs, we don’t pursue higher education. If we wanted to we could and we do but we don't get recognized for it enough so racism and discrimination continue to happen. 

Bhua: We are very selfless people. If you knocked on any Punjabi person’s door and wanted food, shelter, or help they wouldn’t turn you down. 

Final Messages

Rav’s final message: Life can be dark sometimes but it's on us to create light in our life. A lot of people may beat us down, call us certain names, and put us in boxes as we talked about. But it is our responsibility as individuals to break through that darkness and create hope for the next generation to come. 

Bhua’s final message: All is equal and all is even.