Naaz’s Learnings and Emerging Themes

HIMMAT MEDIA interviewed Naaz about her project this time. Learn more about her thought process behind the project, her whys, any emerging themes, and critical learnings throughout this undertaking

Thanks for trusting us with your project, Naaz! ❤️

– Juggi (Juggy)

What are some things you learned as the person doing these interviews?

One thing I learned was the power of listening. South Asian women are often silenced by our community and the rest of the world. So being able to just sit and listen not only empowered the women but allowed me to better understand their story. I think it was also important to have a South Asian interviewer who could understand the struggle. We were able to connect better and be more vulnerable with each other because we could empathize with one another’s experiences. Through this process, I learned that I am able to create a safe space where people feel welcomed enough to open up. I learned that I am able to ask questions that are not judgemental in nature. Having these conversations is important to me and cemented the fact that I am on the right path to anti-racist and anti-oppressive practice. Himmat Media helped support me in amplifying the voices of these beautiful, brilliant South Asian women and for that, I will always be grateful. 

How were they different from your expectations?

I thought being a South Asian woman well-versed in Punjabi would serve me well in the interviewing process. However, I found it difficult to translate English words such as racism or sexism (Fun fact there is actually no word for sexism in Punjabi). Another unexpected portion of the project was the strong influence of internalized racism. The main reason I chose to do this project was that when I moved to Kelowna, and more so when I moved to Vernon, I experienced the most racism I have experienced thus far in my life. So I thought other South Asian women must have been feeling the same way but turns out I wasn’t entirely correct. People in the interview like Sahiti, Jasmine, and Asia were able to highlight their experiences living in a smaller town versus a large city but I wish I had interviewed more South Asian women from various parts of Canada. The initial focus was externalized racism but themes such as brown-on-brown hate and internalized racism emerged from our conversations.  What is interesting though is those who live in the larger cities spoke more about the internalized oppression, the brown-on-brown hate, the cultural and religious influences on sexism, etc. Those who live in small towns, like Asia, were able to better speak on the externalized racism that South Asian women experience. It would be interesting to research the correlation between the racism experienced in large cities versus smaller towns. So I think in the future if I was to redo this project I would consider the geographical location of the people I interview. 

How were they similar?

To be able to witness the bond between the grandmothers, mothers, and daughters in our conversations was an honor. So many of the conversations ended with the women complementing one another and building up each other’s confidence. Yes, this was a conversation about racism and sexism but what came out of it was love and admiration for one another. That is what Chaa da Cup is all about. It's about being able to have vulnerable conversations with the ones you love while sipping on a warm cup of tea. It's about sharing and magnifying the struggles that South Asian women have to face. Above all, it's about connection and I hope we were able to achieve that in our time together. 

What was a memory that stood out to you?

A memory that stood out to me was during my interview with Juggi and mussi. Near the end of our conversation, mussi started to talk about the mistakes she feels she made raising her daughters and what she wishes she could do differently. Hearing that broke my heart because I know Juggi and Rav very well and let me tell you these two women are one of the most badass women I know. What immediately followed was 15-20 minutes of Juggi and I talking about all the beautiful characteristics mussi has passed on to her children. I saw this again in the interview with Jasmine, her mom, and nani (grandmother). Harjit auntie-ji and Jasmine proudly talked about Jasmine’s grandfather who was a force to be reckoned with. Jasmine also acknowledged the positive attributes her mom and nani-ji passed down to her. In my interview with my own mom, I heard it yet again. Mom talked about how she wished she raised stronger girls but I don’t think she realized that we grew up witnessing her strength each and every day and that strength got instilled in us as well. I think often what happens with South Asian women is they don’t get the credit for raising the strong, beautiful children they do. It was an unexpected but welcomed part of the project.

What is a learning that stood out to you?

A learning that stood out to me was the importance of geographic location. Living in cities like Surrey and Brampton you are surrounded by people that look like you, speak like you, act like you, dance like you, and so forth. But when you move to a small town like Vernon you are the outcast, the outsider, the one that doesn’t belong. It demonstrated the importance of representation. Diversity is the first step to not just tolerance but true acceptance and inclusion. Through growing contact with, exposure to, and communicating with people that may not look or act like you teaches us how to relate in different ways, diminishing discrimination. That may be why we see more racism in smaller, secluded towns where there isn’t much diversity. Don’t get me wrong though too much of something isn’t always a good thing either. As Juggi highlighted, being constantly surrounded by South Asian people can also have a negative impact. Being in a predominantly South Asian community means you are also not exposed to various cultures and are more vulnerable to negative cultural and religious influences like sexism. So there’s good and bad in both but overall I think in order to better address racism we need to create more exposure to diversity. Only then can we work towards diminishing racism and being the cultural mosaic Canada portrays itself to be. 

How do you plan on implementing that learning into your real life/practice?

As an aspiring social worker, I think this project has implications for research and practice. In some of our SOCW 514 lectures, we discussed creative research studies similar to this one. This project aligns with social work values and the Canadian Association of Social Workers (CASW) Code of Ethics.  It highlights the experiences that many marginalized and vulnerable populations have to navigate through. Not only does it highlight the discrepancies and systems of oppression at play, but it also highlights what can be done to fight against it. The project talks about what it means to be an ally for the South Asian community, where one can go learn more about South Asian culture, how we can address racism on an individual level, and so forth. Social workers need to be trained in cultural competency, and antiracist and anti-oppressive practice at both individual and organizational levels (George & Ramkissoon, 1998). It involves a creative blend of social work values, self-awareness, the impact of systems of oppression on clients, and the mastery of techniques. Projects like this one help social workers better grasp the impact of ethnic realities on clients and how best to support them. I think this project could be expanded well beyond South Asian women. Let’s talk to South Asian men, other IBPOC individuals, IBPOC 2SLGBTQIA+ individuals, immigrants, refugees, etc. Research doesn’t have to be clinical all the time and I think that was my biggest takeaway. Research doesn’t have to involve scientific methods and data correlation and alpha this and beta that (can you tell I am not in the research field?). Why are we not going directly to the source? Why are we not listening to the people that these systems are directly impacting? 

Meet the Dhadli Women

Participants: Ravinder Kaur Dhadli & Jagreet Dhadli

Naaz: Do you think racism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Ravinder Mussi-ji: It happens in Canada and it happened in the past too. I still see people discriminating against others…and I have faced it many times. It's a good thing you are bringing it up and making people aware about it. We need more people talking about it and dealing with the issue.

Juggy: Okay, sooo… Canada was built off racism, whether its the genocide of Indigeous people, policies against Chinese people, policies against South Asians, Komagata Maru etc. For example, why was Hogan’s Alley in Vancouver bulldozed? Because they didn’t want a thriving black community. It's our history and you see it every day quite literally in our cities and architecture. 

Naaz: Do you think race and sex are connected when thinking about how South Asian males are treated in Canada versus South Asian females?

Juggy: The prevalence of internalized racism is a function of externalized racism. What happens in our community then helps perpetuate those stereotypes. We can’t point the fingers at ourselves either though because there is still bigotry out there. My brother will probably have to navigate different cultural norms and expectations than I do as a woman. And then he has to take those stereotypes, labels, and expectations, internalize them and navigate the outside world with them. For example, when he goes out my parents will say “Ajit be careful, don’t get into the wrong company” because there is that internalized fear he’s going to join a gang. Valid, considering all the recent public shootings out here. But then he has to navigate it all externally to, proving to the rest of the world that he isn’t one of the bad apples.

Then I think of myself as a South Asian woman. A lot of women were laborers back home. Our ancestors were laborers and as a result, we get exploited within our families and communities. Then as a whole, you see coloured women equate to free labour by white folks so we get paid less, and we get considered less for leadership positions. I’ve been in so many jobs where South Asian women were qualified for higher paying jobs or promotions, who knew the ins and outs of the programs, who were already going above their required roles but they constantly got pushed aside so white men could go prosper. I can see a link between racism and sexism.

Naaz: Mussi-ji you mentioned that you had to work long hours meaning you were away from your children lots of the time plus uncle was gone for long periods of time for work. Growing up we have seen that South Asian mothers often have this unique duo role of working during the day and then coming home and working again taking care of the kids. So taking that into consideration, do you think racism and sexism are connected in how South Asian women are treated in Canada?

Ravinder Mussi-ji: Yes and no. I think we have to look at our culture first. I have seen a lot of families where they work, work, work because they want to financially provide everything for the kids. So spending quality time with kids was never a thing and our kids lacked love and support from us. There are some cultures, including ours, that think if the gender is male then they are kings and males dominate. There are people back home that have that same mentality and then they bring it here. Like I know this bebi (grandma) and baba (grandpa) who came from India and work on the farms. They both come home at the same time, but baba has a couple of drinks of daru (alcohol) and swears at the woman. And then, you know, after he eats and goes to sleep. But for the bebi she has to wash the clothes, clean the house, and prepare the meal for the next day. I see that stuff in my son and your uncle sometimes too so our own culture is still male-dominated and doesn't treat our women right. 

Naaz: Mussi-ji, do you think racism has changed in Canada? What type of racism did you experience when you first immigrated here? What does it look like now? 

Ravinder Mussi-ji: It's changed a little bit. People are more aware of us, like who is Chinese, who comes from Pakistan, etc. I can give you one example. Around 1986 - 1987 I used to work in a parking lot part-time, just over the weekends, at the hospital. So you know back then you had to pay on your way out. So this guy didn’t want to pay and I think eventually he did but I remember him yelling “you fucking Paki”. So I was kind of confused at that time. Like why was he calling me a Paki when I was from India? So then slowly I talked to a couple of people, especially white people, and they explained to me that at that time people didn’t know the difference. So slowly, not only do they know who is from India but they know who is Punjabi, who is Gujarati, etc. So yeah there's change but racism is still here. Now the country needs people and we are short on labor. So they hire immigrants to do the labor jobs, the dirty jobs…the jobs white people don’t want. In white-collar jobs, like management or CEO, you mostly see white people and they don’t even have as much education as some immigrants do. I see female and male sexual discrimination too in who they hire. We also see international students coming for work and they don’t have many options either. So yeah, discrimination is still there. 

Naaz: Juggy, as a first generation Canadian, have you experienced racism and how have you navigated that?

Juggy: Growing up I had a lot of white teachers but I remember this one TA named Rashmi in elementary school. I actually have the card she wrote for me at the end of that school year…it's in my childhood album. I kept it because she was the first person who said my name properly. I think we are truly standing on the shoulders of giants. What our parents' generation have done for us is that they were following this model minority, which we can say is becoming a myth now, but it wasn’t for them. You had to follow this model minority blueprint in order to survive, which helped us thrive as a community. Look at Surrey, look at how many businesses and plazas there are. We have our own business magazines, and our own business awards, We haven’t assimilated as a people. But now what I am seeing is internal racism in the community and casteism. As if we aren’t settlers. We are landless people, and we are on the land of First Nations People of Turtle Island. I am a product of a genocide happening to my people in Punjab, which is why there were no opportunities in Punjab…so mom left and dad followed. Now I am on this land where genocide happened to the people that have lived here before me so I am a product of genocide here too and I have to navigate that. So things like caste no longer apply when you leave the homeland.
I understand we are a closed culture but I found myself suffocating in that. When my friends were only South Asian it created these harmful conversations (about caste, gossip, rumours) and this is the only world I would end up knowing; as a result, what was I really learning? Nothing. I wasn’t developing as a person anymore. When I opened up my circle and life again to more cultures I would hear my parents say “don't hang out with these people because they smell” and in turn, my friend’s parents would say “don’t hang out with these folk because they smell” so we minority cultures are just doing it to ourselves. At the end of it all though, I remain confused because we have this intercultural bullshit battle but we are all being treated the same by white folks. We are all minorities struggling in this system together that has told us we have no place in it. It’s tiring, man.

Naaz: Do you think intercultural racism is happening because of the colonial systems in place or do you think it comes from a place of being vulnerable and being scared of releasing ourselves out to the world again because of the way our South Asian community was treated 20-30 years ago?

Juggy: I think it's a combination of both but I always believe we can coexist. Every day our challenge is to coexist. Competition, harming others needlessly doesn’t make sense to me. We are attached to our cultures so for me there is no way to lose our cultures by just mixing and getting to know others.

Ravinder Mussi-ji: I can’t really speak on that because it wasn’t relevant to us. We lived for a few years in areas where a large Punjabi population lived. I felt like it was better to be surrounded by diversity where you live or where your kids go to school so they have exposure to different cultures and religions. Each religion and culture have good and bad sides so kids need to learn about that. Take Khalsa School for example. Back then I heard the kids were intelligent because there was a one-on-one focus, they were very good at English and mathematics and excelled in their education. On the other hand, though, they were learning gaalan (swear words) and their manners were not appropriate so we decided to move to a community that had mixed cultures. But don’t get me wrong there was a struggle in that too. I still heard from teachers that students were come in smelling like Punjabi tadka or daal. If your foundation is strong at home and you’re teaching your children about your culture it doesn’t matter where you live. At the same time, they can learn good things about other cultures. 

Naaz: Do you think the racism first generation South Asian Canadians experience is different from the racism  South Asians immigrants experience? 

Ravinder Mussi-ji: Yes it is. We (as immigrants coming to this country) were not educated here. We weren’t aware of the other cultures when we came here. We had financial problems as well. So instead of going to school to learn English, we had to pick it up from work. That meant our English was poor, our education was not at the level it should have been and back home we didn’t have computers and stuff either. Whereas people born here as First Generation Canadians are educated here, they are exposed to different cultures, and they have studied multiple areas. 

Juggy: I agree with mom absolutely. Her generation and immigrants from the 70s, 80s and 90s had it a lot harder than us because they had to make it to survive. Putting yourself in survival mode is preparing every day for those attacks because you never know when or where they are going to come from. I remember this interview that I did with Nav Bhatia and he put it so eloquently when he said “what we have built, we have built for you but we have navigated through these challenges so your generation will never have to face them”. But I think a lot of us saw our parents go through these challenges so we made it our own battle. Our parents were forced to play the game that we do not have to play anymore. It's a mixed bag though; some people in our generation still conform to and fall into the pressure, the pitfalls. The racism is definitely different and it was definitely harder for our parents; the challenges were also a lot harder. Our unique challenge is the mental, emotional, and psychological violence that comes with racism. The racism has become invisible, it's more subtle than confrontational and in your face like it was for our parents but I think that's a lot of what Canada is right? People say all the time Canada isn’t racist. Canada is racist…we just smile in your face as we insult you and leave. 

Naaz: We’ve seen a shift in representation at the highest level of government. I mean, the leader of the NDP party is a Sikh Punjabi man. Do you think this will shift the narrative about South Asians in Canada? 

Ravinder Mussi-ji: Yes, yes it will. The leader (Jagmeet Singh) is trying to change something and there will be positive results. We are going to gain more respect and more acknowledgment for who we are. This is why education is so important so that people like Jagmeet can get to these high places of power and help create change. The Canadians born here learn about the education system here and even people coming from abroad are learning more and more. Even with Trudeau, we see more women in his cabinet which encourages other people. 

Juggy: The system still hasn’t changed. We are still trying to navigate an aggressive system and I think there is a lot of stuff behind the scenes we don’t know about. We see the media coverage and the endless press conferences but you’re not seeing the day-to-day challenges that for example, Jagmeet Singh would have to navigate compared to his racist right-wing counterparts. Nonetheless, thanks to Jagmeet coming into Parliament and stating “my name is Jagmeet.” The power that held for a lot of racial minorities remains effective today. We see someone and we can go, “hey, he looks like me.”

Naaz: Why do you think people don’t report incidents of racism? What stops people from reporting to the RCMP, government agencies etc?

Ravinder Mussi-ji: We come from India where you can murder a guy and get away with it as long as you have connections or money. We have that same kind of mentality here, that nothing is going to happen so why bother reporting it? The second thing is we are busy, we don’t have the courage, and we have language barriers. We are focused on saving the job, and saving the house so we choose to move on and dismiss it as people just being crazy. Sometimes we don’t trust the systems in place. Sometimes it happens so often that it becomes habitual to just ignore it and put our walls up to protect ourselves. Instead, we should be making people aware of the tools and resources available…not just putting a bandaid on it. 

Naaz: What do you think is needed to help address racism in Canada? What do we need to do as Canadians to help create change?

Ravinder Mussi-ji: I think governments and employers need to focus on being more inclusive in their hiring practices. We see more immigrants coming to Canada and we should be hiring them for management and supervision. We are just as qualified as the next white guy. Secondly, if people do complain and report it, it should be handled properly. That way people gain more faith in the system and have the courage to go report. In schooling as well. If some kids make a joke or remark there should be some sort of punishment for that and they should be educated on why that was bad to say. 

Juggy: I think because every situation is so unique and there are many different variables and factors it really comes down to the principles of cultural sensitivity and equity which starts when we are young and from home.

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about South Asian culture?

Ravinder Mussi-ji: I think I would like people to learn how family-orientated we are and the benefits that come from that. It makes families financially stronger, kids don’t need daycare, and get the chance to learn so much from their grandparents. And second, our culture is so rich. Our festivals are beautiful, our weddings are a month long and we love to party. 

Naaz: What is one thing you wish people knew about South Asian women?

Juggy: Even if we seem like we are oppressed, do not mistake that for us being weak. Yes, we are taught to be meek, but that does not make us weak as people. Some of the strongest women I know are women who are suffering in silence. South Asian women don’t have community support like other women do in other cultures that are a little more progressive with women’s rights. There isn’t enough camaraderie within our community. We internalize this and blame women for being weak, labeling them as not being good enough for the man, for the family, to be friends and allies to other women, or for society. And I think that’s a gross misrepresentation. We are far from any of that. 

Final Messages

Mussi-ji’s Final Message: For South Asian women coming to Canada, know that you came to a free country, it's not India anymore. So if you feel pressure, know there is a lot of support out there. Keep faith in yourself and always try your best. 

Juggy’s Final Message: We all come from One Source and we are all going to return to that One Source. Life is about what you make it out to be for you. The story you choose to tell yourself about yourself and your life every day. All these rules and regulations we’ve created are restrictions, illusions, and they’re not real. At the end of the day, they don’t define who we are. We get to define who we are, through our actions, by our principles, our values, and how we act on them – like, how we treat other people. Working on ourselves is a lifelong commitment and I think we have to commit to fearlessly learning about ourselves, and evolving. We also gotta learn how to be more self-aware of our experience as a stream of consciousness, and how it merges into a collective consciousness each and every day. Until we get comfortable with the idea of our own existence being in the same realm as others in existence – none of the shit that we know as injustice and prejudice and racism will correct itself. So change starts with us, but it’s a commitment we must sign up for with every fibre of our being.

Meet Asia Nijjar

Naaz: Do you think racism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Asia: 100% racism still occurs in Canada. I live in a small town where everyone is predominately one ethnic background. I think people living in this small town, and others, get used to their community being and looking a certain way. So when people of color, like me, come to this community we get outcasted. I don’t know if that's because they aren’t willing to learn, or aren't willing to be more open…I am not sure…all I know is there is a big problem in smaller towns. 

Naaz: Do you think sexism occurs in Canada?

Asia: I think there have been incidents in the workplace where I have experienced sexism and of course, there is sexism in South Asian culture but outside of that, I don’t think I’ve experienced it much. Culturally boys are seen as the pride and joy in everyone’s family. Boys are seen as doing no wrong and there's always happiness in the house when a boy is born. But I think we are starting to change it and I see that within my own family. I think the older generations are still stuck in their ways so it's on us to move away from these ideologies. 

Naaz: Do you think racism and sexism are connected in the way South Asian women are treated in Canada?

Asia: Quite possibly yes but I haven’t thought much about that. I think in the workplace I feel like I have been discriminated against for being a female or because of the color of my skin, not both. I think there is some intersection between racism and sexism but I personally haven’t experienced it so I can’t speak to it. 

Naaz: Do you think the racism you experience as a First Generation Canadian is different from what our mothers or grandmothers experience as South Asian immigrants?

Asia: Oh for sure! My mom told me stories of when they immigrated here. They moved to a small town, Port Alberni, and going directly headfirst into a small town where they didn’t see many people that looked like them was hard. Plus the culture shock. For me, it was easier because my mom eventually moved to Surrey where there is a huge Indian community. I felt like I belonged, that I wasn’t different or weird and I know my mom and grandma definitely felt that way when they moved here. But when I moved to Vernon I experienced a lot of racism. Like I mentioned before I think a part of it is because of the community that is already here but there are a lot of different ways I've experienced racism. People say things like “brown people only work at this store or supermarket so what are you doing working here?”. It also doesn’t help that workplaces in Vernon are not diverse. I am one of the few people of color in the whole town, which is a reflection of how challenging it is to navigate every aspect of daily life. I think sometimes people don’t realize what they are saying is racist and those who do know it is racist come at it more aggressively. You can see it even walking down the streets in Vernon. People will look at you and glare at you simply because you’re a few shades darker than them. Thankfully I found my community here. My partner grew up in Vernon so he built a community around him and they welcomed me. If I didn’t have that it would have been tougher to manage. 

Naaz: As a first generation Canadian, when did you realize you were “different” from dominant culture and how did that make you feel?

Asia: That’s a hard question because I was a part of the dominant culture growing up in Surrey. It was easier because the people around me were going through similar things, experiencing the world the way I was. There may have been the odd time where I felt left out like sleepovers because South Asian children are not allowed to sleepover but for the most part, I felt like I was a part of the community. When I moved to Vernon though I had a really hard time connecting with people. White people did not want to be friends with me for whatever reasons they had. I don’t even know if it was a racial thing but it's hard not to see it that way. But because I have my strong roots and because I had my partner it lessened the blow a little. But Vernon was the first time I felt “different.”

Naaz: Have you ever been treated differently because you were a South Asian woman? Were you treated differently at restaurants, treated poorly in healthcare settings etc?

Asia: See I always see the good in people so even if I am being treated poorly I always try to understand and empathize as to why (Asia is just such an angel!). I'm sure there have been circumstances and I’ve heard it from people, like you, who have experienced it because of their gender or because of the color of their skin or both. But it's hard for me to accuse people. I know deep inside it's probably a racist incident or action but I don’t want to accuse them of doing it. 

Naaz: Why do you think that we as South Asian women continue to hold unrealistic expectations for ourselves? Why do we feel pressured to be the best version of ourselves?

Asia: I think a part of it is to make our parents and the family happy. They have sacrificed so much for us moving to a new country so I think it's our way of giving back to them. But what happens is we put ourselves into boxes and can’t explore different things that could potentially make us happy. We focus so much on what the family wants and forget about ourselves. We have always been a collectivist culture and everything revolves around your family. There’s a lot of strength that comes from being a collectivist culture too though. For one, you always have a support system and they always want you to succeed. In Western culture, they might be similar and there might be things we don’t see and don’t know. And I think it's important to remember that. It's important to remember that we don’t know everything about other cultures and we might actually have a lot in common. So it's tough to generalize an answer like this but I think that might be why. 

Naaz: Do you think there is internalized racism that occurs within our South Asian communities? 

Asia: Again, I think it's a bit of both. I think there’s definitely more externalized racism that occurs but we do internalize it and it's hard not to. People have been attacked for being South Asian. People have been verbally abused for being South Asian but there's internal oppression too and I mean of course there would be.

Naaz: What can we do to create change? What is needed to help address racism towards South Asian women in Canada?

Asia: First I think we need to have more open dialogue, especially in smaller towns, like a Community Action of sorts. There is a South Asian community here but they need to be more vocal and welcoming. There needs to be more effort to spread the information on larger platforms so we can do big things like people have been able to with Black Lives Matter (BLM). Of course not taking away from BLM but something needs to be done in order to create global change. Some agencies are doing wonderful things like Pink Ladoo. Or even smaller-scale things like what you are doing with this website. I also think we youngsters need to bring older generations into this battle as well. 

Naaz: Do you think there are enough resources in place for people who experience racism in Canada and more specifically in your geographic location?

Asia: In my region not at all. I think somewhere bigger like Surrey there may be a few options but even then it's not enough. I think we need to have different resources like educational programs and workshops on South Asian culture. I know it is important to address the historical impacts of Canada and what it has done to Indigenous people, but we also need to recognize and understand other cultures that make up this cultural mosaic of Canada. South Asians are the second largest group of immigrants in Canada so why aren’t we educating more people about them? That is one way we reduce the stigma and create widespread change. 

Naaz: How can someone be an ally for the South Asian community?

Asia: I think just be willing to be open, to listen, to learn, and talk. Whether it's a South Asian male or female, just be open to listening about their experiences. Talk to people in your family, especially the older generations, and have these tough conversations about racism and sexism. Call people out on it if they are being racist or sexist. I think if we all start doing that then it will spread wider and wider. The conversations can be hard to have so you can go to your brown friends and ask them how to start these conversations but it's not always on us. 

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about your culture?

Asia: One of the microaggressions I always hear is that brown people are taking all the jobs in the Okanagan. And what I want to say to that is yes maybe they are and yes maybe they are working at Tim Hortons or the gas station but what's important to remember is that they are just trying to make it like the rest of you. People immigrating from India have to struggle a lot harder than we do to work, get an education, to make a living. They come from a whole different country, learn a completely different language, learn to drive in Canada, and so forth. They are just trying to make a successful life for themselves…just like you are. 

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about South Asian women?

Asia: We are just as good as the men in our family. We can and do succeed and accomplish all the same things men do. We are strong and resilient but the sad thing is the media won’t show you that so you continue to stereotype us. 

Final Message

Asia’s final message: If you do experience sexism or racism be vocal about what is going on. Don’t keep it to yourself or your immediate circle. The more we report it, the more visible it will become, and only then will we start to see actual change. 

Meet the Gill Women

Participants: Sarabjit Bhua-ji and Rav

Naaz: Do you think racism occurs in Canada?

Rav: I think it exists in Canada. We are a diverse country, with a lot of different people from different backgrounds. This means there are going to be people that have different mindsets than us. Maybe some of us just aren’t as open to other cultures, maybe they come from a sheltered childhood, or whatever their reasons may be. They are used to it being only one subset of people and seeing a diverse version of other humans might be a problem for them so they might exert racism. I think we aren’t educated enough about other cultures. So things that seem foreign are automatically labeled and we dislike it. Therefore, we hate people without even learning about them first. 

Sarabjit Bhua-ji: I completely agree. I think there is a judgment put on people and we stamp it as good or not good. 

Naaz: Do you think sexism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Rav: I think so to some extent, especially in our Punjabi community. There is still some preference for men over women. A good example of this is the birth rates of girls versus boys in our community. New immigrants come here with the same old values of carrying the lineage forward and preferring boys over girls because they think men can do more things in life. There's a sense of comfort and pride in having a boy in our community. I know in our family, the extended family members put pressure on my mom to have a boy after giving birth to two girls. They went to such extreme lengths like shipping my mom off to India and making her take medications, herbal teas, etc to make sure the fetus was a boy. That is changing now as our generation has children. I think with my generation there is still that glass ceiling but we are bending it slowly. May not break it yet but we are starting to create opportunities that mom didn’t have when she came to Canada. I don’t have to start from rock bottom like mom and other immigrant moms had to. I have an advantage being born in Canada but I am still three steps behind the white males, white females, and men of color. Over time we are beginning to knock down the barriers but they still exist. 

Naaz: Do you think racism and sexism are connected when thinking about how South Asian women are treated in Canada?

Rav: Back in the day there was that stereotype that South Asian women stay home and take care of their kids and their life is just within those four walls. But I think women now are expected to work and take care of the kids plus the house. Things didn’t get taken out…more things got added on. So now it's more of a shock when women my age aren’t working. There is still a bit of an expectation because we have taught girls to be more proactive and to take care of the house alongside studying alongside working. Our men aren’t being taught that and expect things to be done for them. 

Sarabjit Bhua-ji: Plus I think it's different between generations too. Back in my day, my husband was the leader of the house. So I had to make the food, take the dishes to the table…do everything aside from putting the actual food in his mouth. But with Rav and Sunny [Sunny is Rav’s husband and Sarabjit Bhua-ji’s son] it's 50/50. I think people my age will continue to be this way but your generation is changing that. 

Naaz: Do you think the racism our South Asian men experience is different from that of South Asian women?

Rav: It's hard to differentiate that now because I think of myself as an equal to Sunny so I carry myself in that way. I think if I was taken out of Vancouver, where there is a huge Punjabi and South Asian presence, into a smaller town  I would see that shift where people might think that Sunny is more capable of doing things and taking care of me. But living in Surrey I don’t feel that as often. One point I will bring up though is that with our generation we see a lot of gang violence. I think this is connected to the sexism we see in our community plus the internalized racism we experience. We see a lot of the first generation Punjabi boys not treating Punjabi girls equally because they learned that it's okay to abuse girls. For example, a lot of Punjabi women killed in the Lower Mainland are killed because they try to escape this gang lifestyle or break up with a boy who is immersed in that lifestyle. Take Maple Bhatalia or Kiran Dhesi for example. All they were trying to do was break up with their boyfriends. It's because Punjabi boys continue to see women in their life get abused and not get any help or support for it. However, if those Punjabi boys are dating white girls, the white girl has the option to leave safely most of the time. I think that has to do with our mindset of putting Punjabi and South Asian women in boxes. There's almost this expectation that it will fly with South Asian women but if it's someone outside of the culture the boy that is exerting the abuse is “in trouble”. For the Punjabi girl, the biggest worry becomes her parents finding out, the shame it will bring to her community or her family, etc. So we see intersectionality between externalized racism from the dominant Canadian culture, internalized racism, and sexism and how that affects the South Asian community. 

Sarabjit Bhua-ji: Women are capable of doing everything men can do and more. Even back home we want to pretend like we treat boys and girls equally but we don’t. When it comes down to it, boys are always put on the pedestal and girls get left behind. This means less education for the girls, fewer chances to succeed and then they do get stuck at home as Rav said. 

Naaz: Bhua-ji, we’ve had conversations before about the racism you’ve experienced in Canada. Do you think racism has changed in Canada? What type of racism did you experience when you first immigrated here? What does it look like now? 

Bhua: Yes, it's very different. Back then the thought was that Indian people didn’t have an education, our living standards weren’t hygienic, our women didn’t leave the house, etc. You didn’t have the energy to fight back against it so it became normalized. We didn’t have the energy to fight it because we were dealing with culture shock, working day in and day out trying to create a life for our children and we came from nothing. Now, I would say it's still there but like 25% of the time. For example, in my workplace there is a gora (white man) and if he had the power he would kick out all the Indian women that worked there because he doesn’t like our race. I think it's just the mindset and some people won’t change. I have worked in that job for 14 years alongside this gora and we do the same things, and work the same way but he still makes stupid comments. Sometimes I want to slap him over the head because it gets too much. So yeah it's changed but it's still here…too much of it is still around because some people don’t want to or don’t care to change their mindset. 

Naaz: Rav, as a first generation Canadian, have you experienced racism and how have you navigated that?

Rav: I would think so. I think growing up I was a little bit embarrassed about being Punjabi. You know what I mean with the oil in your hair, the 2 guut (ponytails), smelling like Punjabi tadka. And then you would hear things like “look at those Punjabis who don’t have a standard of living”, “look at their small houses” or “they are taking our jobs away” blatantly all the time. I would also think to myself, ``Do you want to drive a taxi?”. These people were doctors, engineers, and lawyers back home. I don’t see white people in Canada wanting to do the dirty work. You should be happy people are coming here and doing the work you don’t want to do. So I think we are still dealing with that. What I see more of on the rise is brown-on-brown hate. I’ve even had to catch myself doing it a couple of times. We have international students coming here from India who have a different standard of living than the first-generation brown kids born here and we, alongside the rest of Canada, are putting them in a box. We have started to judge our own people that are new to Canada instead of helping and supporting them. The shift to reduce the stigma though is changing. My mindset can change but someone like the white guy mom works with is never going to change. No matter how much mom tries to convince him, no matter how much the women at her work rally up against him, he won’t care but my generation can and will catch ourselves and reflect on our biases. 

Naaz: Why do you think that shift has occurred? Why has our generation been able to become more aware of our biases and reflect on it?

Rav: I think back to when our parents came here. I saw what they went through. Whatever my mom did, I also did. Whatever my mom wore, I wore. So I saw my mom go through her struggle and I don’t want to continue having those biases about immigrants coming to this country. I wish I could go back to all the bullies in elementary school and tell them to shut up and stand up for myself. Now growing up I am proud to be who I am and I am proud of my culture. That is why I think awareness and education are so important. Had I had my blinders on I would have continued the stigma and the stereotypes. 

Naaz: Bhua-ji, how was it for you as an immigrant mother raising your sons in Canada? How did you balance the integration of both Canadian and South Asian culture?

Bhua: It was hard. I wanted my kids to know the religion and know how to speak Punjabi. I knew when my kids were going to go out in the world and into school they were going to be taught English but who was going to teach them Punjabi? We lived in Victoria when Sunny was growing up so he was surrounded more by white people and it was a harsher atmosphere there so he didn’t have many opportunities to learn. When we moved to Surrey he learned from his mussis (mother’s sisters), mamis (mother’s sisters-in-law) and mamas (mother’s brother), bibi (grandmother), and baba (grandfather). He even went to Punjabi classes and now he knows how to write his name in Punjabi

Fun fact: Sunny only survived one day in Punjabi school and then got kicked out

Naaz: Rav, as a first generation Canadian, how has it been integrating the dominant Canadian culture with your own heritage and cultural background? How was it balancing the East vs the West, the brown vs the white?

Rav: Growing up I had two personalities: Rav at home and cool kid Rav at school. Integrating the two was difficult. I remember mom trying to make me lunch I wanted for school one day but there was a smell of sabji in my sandwich. So even though I was eating Western food it still smelt Indian. I spoke Punjabi and English and Punjabi was predominantly spoken at home. My dad made sure we learned about religion, there was Punjabi programming on the TV, roti every day, and maybe pizza on the weekends. So my “split personality” came from trying to balance what I was learning at school and the Western values versus the Eastern values my mom and dad were trying to teach us. I was embarrassed about my culture in elementary school because you try so hard to be Canadian, whatever that even means. Like, was I supposed to eat what they [dominant culture students] were eating? Was I supposed to talk back to my parents like they were? You pick up on those things and you try them at home and we all know how the Child Protection Service stories go [if you don’t know go check out Hasan Minaj]. When I entered high school I had two Punjabi friends and being Punjabi kurya (girls) we had to hide a lot of things. We had to hide our make-up and our clothes, we would tie up our hair at home and let it down the second we got to school, the kinds of things that we all had to do as South Asian girls. University is what changed me. I had proven to my parents that I was capable of taking care of myself in a different country but still had close ties to my culture and religion, especially being a brown girl. So I think overall it was just expected that I would balance both. Mom and dad were responsible for the stuff at home and I was on my own to face the rest of the world.

Naaz: Do you think the media perpetuates racism towards the South Asian community? 

Rav: I think the news is sensational…the more sensational it is, the more likely it is to break the news. Like if you see a successful Punjabi author you might see it in fine print on the left-hand side of a website or newspaper but you never see it in the main headlines because it doesn’t attract the viewers.  But then we see headlines of marginalized groups, like South Asians, being violent or involved in drugs. These groups of people are already stereotyped that way in society so the news continues to confirm peoples’ biases and add more fuel to the flame. Like here’s another story for you to support your stereotypes, to allow people to continue adding people to boxes, and to cement their pre-existing beliefs. Unfortunately, though, that further adds to the marginalization of people and makes it harder to break that cycle. This is why I think education is so important! I think everyone should do some kind of formal education after high school where they can develop critical thinking skills and be able to compare good media and bad media. If you are getting your information from one source then that's all you are learning. But if you can think critically, and do your own research, then maybe this won’t seem as sensational as the media tries to make it. I wish there was a more critical way of examining the news but unfortunately, most of it is just clickbait. The crazier the headline, the more likes you are going to get on Instagram and let’s be real you’re only going to read the caption. So it's confirming what you already think...brown people suck and that's that. 

Naaz: Speaking of media, how do you feel about South Asian representation in movies, TV shows etc.  Because we are in Canada, let's focus on Western media like Hollywood. Do you think we are properly represented in media, songs, movies?

Rav: I mean no. Look at Slumdog Millionaire for example. The whole movie was based around this narrative between the extremely poor and the extremely rich but India is so much more than that. I don’t think Hollywood is doing a good job. Even if you see people in Hollywood they are playing the stereotypical role of the taxi driver or whatever it may be. Plus we have Indian celebrities making fun of Indians, like Russell Peters, Lily Singh, and JusReign. They all love bashing on us. We are proud of the people’s accomplishments and the struggles they had to face as South Asian celebrities but at what cost? I know there are other IBPOC comedians out there who make fun of their culture too but all we are doing is perpetuating the stereotypes. There needs to be more variety. Plus I don't even think I’ve seen that many Punjabi actors in Hollywood. There are a lot of Hindi actors out there making a name for themselves, like Dev Patel for example, but even then they play stereotypical roles. There's a push and pull factor. You will see some people make it and they are representing our culture in a nice light and then some people are pushed into stereotypical roles because it makes sense. Why aren’t we seeing CEOs and managers in movies that are South Asian? I mean look at Mastercard, the CEO of Google…those guys are all brown, they represent our people but Hollywood won’t show you that. 

Naaz: Do you think South Asian celebrities that have made it have a responsibility to talk about racism?

Rav: I think I would rather them not. Maybe like isolated events but only if they know the information behind it. For example, let's take the Kisan movement [The Farmer’s Protest that occurred in India. For more information please visit https://standwithfarmers.carrd.co/]. Many celebrities weren’t talking about it and we gave them a bad rep for it. But honestly, I don't think celebrities need to tweet about it if they don’t know about it. I would rather have someone within the Kisan movement talk about it because they would be sharing factual information. A lot of these celebrities started off on their platform by making fun of their own people and now all of a sudden they are going to switch gears and care? They might get objections from people because of that. Even outside of South Asian celebrities I would rather people didn’t share about movements they didn’t know about. I mean look at Rihanna for example. Yes, it was amazing to see her tweet about the Kisaans but it took all the focus away from the Kisan movement and put the focus on her and she got all the views and content. There's so much energy that could have been put into what was actually important. So yes if you are involved with the movement, or whatever it may be, speak up about it. Otherwise, I would rather you didn’t. 

Naaz: Is there an opportunity to help address racism towards South Asian people in our education system?

Rav: I think building it directly into the school curriculum would be awesome! I mean we don’t even give enough awareness and importance to what happened to Indigenous Peoples in Canada. I remember growing up and learning about the Confederation, how Canada was built, Hudson’s Bay blah blah blah. But we never learned about the negative, dark side of Canada. The only thing I remember from high school about South Asians was Komogata Maru and even then it was watered down. People died because they were denied entry to this country and 40 years later we have one memorial in Downtown Vancouver and even then that gets vandalized every year. I don’t even think people know there was a whole Sikh battalion during World War Two and how many soldiers were forced to fight a war that wasn’t theirs. I know you can take language courses at UBC but there are no history courses. I think it would be awesome to see someone who has been able to get an education in Canada and then teach others about Punjabi history. I know we have mom guys here and I can ask them stories about Punjab but once they pass who is going to tell us the stories? I maybe know 25% of what they know. We won’t lose these stories if someone can document them and maybe start developing a curriculum based on them and other resources. If you do your own research, especially in this day and age, it can become biased. For example, if you look up the history of Punjab it might eventually lead you to information about Khalistan and it starts to become very political. We have such a big South Asian population here, and more specifically Punjabi Sikh population, so wouldn’t it make sense to educate the new upcoming generations about the people of Canada? Because we are the people that makeup Canada. 

Naaz: Aside from education, what do you think is needed to help address racism in Canada?

Rav: It all starts at home. We learn and absorb so much from our parents. We need to start having conversations at home. If someone is saying something racist or super discriminatory, instead of allowing it we need to stop and have a conversation. Ask the hard questions and it doesn’t need to be something formal. It just helps that person become more aware of why they are saying what they are saying. We have to reflect on where our biases are coming from and what is influencing them. There are a lot of resources and programs out there. You just have to put the effort in to find it. Take patriarchy and sexism within the Punjabi community. If Punjabi parents started to become more educated on topics like sexism then they are more likely to start talking to other Punjabi parents about it. Maybe at the gurdwara (Sikh temple), we can have a program that teaches parents how to treat boys and girls equally and then they can bring those values home. I think that would have a huge impact. 

Bhua: I agree. Kids are like plants. Whatever you water them with is what is going to make them grow. So whatever you say to them is going to influence how they behave and what they say. If a child sees parents fighting at home they are going to think it's normal and start doing it at school. So I agree with Rav…it all starts at home. 

Naaz: Where can someone go to learn more about South Asian culture?

Rav: I think the primary place to go would be the gurdwara but that would teach you more about religion. I don’t even know if there is anything in the public library. If I wanted to learn about French or Spanish culture I could easily go to the library and pick up a book but sadly I don’t think you can do the same for Punjabi culture. Linguistics wise there are resources like audio tapes on YouTube, language programs, courses, etc but to learn about Punjabi culture…I don’t know. I would probably suggest going directly to the source and going to someone in the community, like mom. 

Bhua: There are so many gurdwaras here in the Lower Mainland and they are welcoming of everyone regardless of caste, religion, culture, age, gender, etc so I would suggest going to the gurdwara and talking to someone. Some gurdwaras also have museums like The Ross Sikh Temple in Vancouver. I think gurdwaras should be responsible for making libraries where people can access resources. 

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about your culture?

Rav: I would want people to know how resilient we are and how dheet (brave, determined) we are. If we want to get something done we will get it done. There is a big perception we are lazy, we do labor jobs, we don’t pursue higher education. If we wanted to we could and we do but we don't get recognized for it enough so racism and discrimination continue to happen. 

Bhua: We are very selfless people. If you knocked on any Punjabi person’s door and wanted food, shelter, or help they wouldn’t turn you down. 

Final Messages

Rav’s final message: Life can be dark sometimes but it's on us to create light in our life. A lot of people may beat us down, call us certain names, and put us in boxes as we talked about. But it is our responsibility as individuals to break through that darkness and create hope for the next generation to come. 

Bhua’s final message: All is equal and all is even.

Meet the Saini Women

Participants: Nani-ji, Harjit [Auntie-ji], Jasmine

Naaz: Do you think racism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Nani-ji: When we came in 74’ it happened to us a lot. We didn’t know English back then so we couldn’t even understand what they were saying to us. When they made comments like “get out of our country” Jasmine’s nana (maternal grandfather) would fight back. He would tell them that Canada is everyone’s country, that we all immigrated here, and the only people that can truly call this country home are the Native people.There is still racism now but there is a strong South Asian presence in Canada and now we can understand what they are saying and fight back. Back in the day, especially in our community, there was a lot of preference given to boys over girls. Families would be looked down upon if a boy wasn’t born in their house. The expectation was the girl was going to get married off to another family and you wanted a boy to carry on your lineage. But those kinds of things don’t matter as much anymore. I want my girls to study. I want them to get an education just as much as I want the boys in our family too. It's not just in our community though. We see it in Canada and dominant cultures as well. 

Harjit Auntie-ji: I think it exists in Canada and I have definitely experienced it in the household and professionally. I have seen it within my family. Not so much from my dad but definitely from my mom. It took me a really long time to understand where it comes from and I think it's just the way she's been molded by the generation of women before her. We always talk about the men carrying on the lineage but I don’t think it's just the men that can carry on the family name, women can do it too! When I was pregnant with Jasmine I would pray all the time she was a girl and I was so proud when I found out. I made a vow to myself that I wasn’t going to treat her any differently than how I would treat my son because I went through that and I wanted to break that cycle. My first way of breaking down that barrier was distributing ladoos. We always distribute ladoos as a sign of celebration when a boy is born but rarely when a girl is born. I didn’t like ladoos so I distributed jalebees instead and my mom got mad at me for it. I even threw a party in honor of Jasmine when she was born. I don’t let Jasmine ever feel or think she is lesser than her brother or any other boy out there. We have to keep fighting against it. The sad thing is I see women putting other women down and we allow it. My dad was one of our biggest advocates. So if I am who I am today it has a lot to do with my dad. My mom didn’t have a driver's license so dad pushed her to learn and a lot of Punjabi men to this day don’t let that happen. We can’t fault the men for everything because look at my dad as an example.
I remember this one story and it fits so perfectly. On certain days a lot of Punjabi women don’t wash their hair, right? On Tuesdays, it's bad luck for the brothers if you wash it. Then on Thursdays, it's bad luck for your husband. On Saturdays, it's bad luck for your house. So I asked my dad “what about us[women] and why do we not wash our hair?” and you know what he said to me? He said “someone like me made those rules because back in the day women in India had long hair. So when they would wash it, they would have to spend the whole day drying and combing it. So what happens? The housework doesn’t get done so we came up with this stupid rule”. So I wash my hair every single day. 

Jasmine: When we question it we get told that it is how it is. But when did it start? We just don’t ask why and there are many reasons. Take nani for example. She came from India and didn’t have an education because she wasn’t given that opportunity back home. So a lot of what she learned came from my nana. Thankfully my nani and nana were more progressive people so nani did things that were “out of the norm” like wearing jeans, driving a car, etc. She had support from nana and that caused a ripple effect on my mom and then me. Other women don’t get that opportunity though. When I was applying for university all my girlfriends had to stay in Calgary while their male cousins and brothers were allowed to apply for university outside of Calgary. So I was maybe one or two of the Punjabi girls in my class that left Calgary and moved to Kelowna for my undergraduate degree and now to Worcester, Massachusetts. That's all because my mom didn’t stop me. Nani in the past did show preference for her sons over her daughters but through growth and learning, she doesn’t do that with the grandchildren. 

Naaz: Do you think racism and sexism are connected when thinking about how South Asian women are treated in Canada?

Nani-ji: I experienced racism and so did your nana. His advantage though was that he knew English so he would just make friends with all the gora (white people), teach them about the culture, etc. I didn’t have that opportunity because I didn’t know English right away. Once I also knew English I could become friends with the gora too and they taught me things about the Canadian lifestyle and I taught them things about the Indian lifestyle. Your nana had the option to get mad when he experienced racism…I couldn’t. But I mean go to any country and you will see differences in how people are treated whether it is race, sex…anything really. You have to be able to have a conversation with people and become friends with them, teach them.

Harjit Auntie-ji: I think Jasmine pegged it right on the nail. I have seen it with my own eyes before. I have a friend who is a young Indian man and he drives a nice car that he worked hard for. But the cops pull him over all the time and he’s done nothing wrong. He’s getting targeted simply because he is a South Asian male and the police, plus the rest of society, has stereotyped brown munde (boys) to be drug dealers in Canada. As a South Asian woman, I think I see this relationship between racism and sexism in the workplace. If I was to go to an interview for the same job as a South Asian man, he would get hired over me any time. We also struggle with internalized racism and sexism in our community. It roots from a history of colonialism, imperialism, and the British taking over India but we continue to let it happen. So many times I’ve heard Punjabi men go “God I would never let my wife do that” like excuse me?! 

Jasmine: I think it depends on where you are. If you look at police brutality our boys experience it more in Canada, especially if they live in areas like Surrey, Calgary, and Brampton. If a brown boy is driving a nice car the automatic assumption is that he’s gotta be a drug dealer or part of a gang. What if he is just driving his mom’s car? So in terms of racism and sexism, I think our Punjabi men do experience it more than Punjabi women do, especially when confronted by the police. 

Naaz: Harjit Auntie-ji, we’ve had conversations before about the racism you’ve experienced in Canada. Do you think racism has changed in Canada? What type of racism did you experience when you first immigrated here? What does it look like now? 

Harjit Auntie: When I moved to Canada I was really young like maybe a year or year and a half old. In my school, there were only two other Indian kids and the rest were Caucasians. I experienced a lot of racism and was called many names, like Paki. My parents built confidence in me, and your uncles, so I had a strong personality and I didn’t let the name calling bug me. The racism I did experience came from white students that were not well off, from smaller communities, and weren't exposed to a lot of diversity. I would go to the counselor and they would say things like “those children come from troubled homes so that is why they are taking it out on you”. But why weren’t they taking it out on other students then, the students that were white? I still remember this one time in grade 8 a boy was walking behind me in the hallway, calling me Paki, and I just turned around and punched him. I stood up for myself like I was taught to and quickly other students of color became friends with me so they wouldn’t get bullied either. So I kind of became a protector of sorts. Now in the later part of my life having lived in Calgary and Brampton where there is a large South Asian presence I think I either don’t experience it or am just oblivious to it. I will say there has been a lot of progression from 1974 to 2022 but we still have a ways to go. 

Naaz: Jasmine, as a first generation Canadian, have you experienced racism and how have you navigated that?

Jasmine: I grew up in northeast Calgary which has a very large South Asian community. So I was lucky in the sense that I didn’t experience it growing up. What I did experience was internalized racial oppression from the Punjabi community. I am a darker-skinned Punjabi girl so I would always get comments on how my skin wasn’t “fair” or “white” enough. It bugged me a lot but nan (nani-ji) and mom raised me to be strong and independent like they are and to fight my battles. I experienced a lot of racism when I moved to Kelowna for my undergraduate degree, especially working at the bank. Caucasian people would wait in line for a Caucasian teller even though I was clearly available. It was so weird because I was 18 at the time and trying to make sense of it all. That’s just evidence of the power in numbers. If you are in a community like Brampton, northeast Calgary, or Surrey there is a large presence so you may not feel it to the full extent. I think ultimately people like mom, nani, nana did take a stand and showed the rest of Canada that we deserve to be in this country too so our generation feels it less. I won’t sit here and say it's gone away though. It's still here, it just depends on where you are living. 

Naaz: Why do you think racism is more prevalent in smaller communities, like Kelowna or Vernon, versus larger metropolitans, like Vancouver or Toronto? 

Harjit Auntie-ji: I think it's due to a lack of exposure and knowledge. People in smaller communities tend to be more sheltered and live in their niche. For that reason, they may not be open to other cultures. Even look at things outside of race. Take sexuality for example. It's harder being a gay person in a small community because of the lack of acceptance and knowledge. 

Jasmine: I think it's also due to a lack of resources. If you don’t have the resources for the knowledge to be given then it's going to be harder to learn right? Can we really fault people for not knowing when there is such a scarcity of resources? That doesn’t excuse people from not learning though. It's 2022 and most people in smaller communities have access to the internet and can learn…they just have to be willing to. We also have to reach out to those smaller communities and provide those resources. 

Naaz: The workplace has been brought up a few times in our interview. Has there been a time where you have been passed on for a promotion or not treated right in the workplace because you are a South Asian female?

Harjit Auntie: Not so much in Calgary. I was the first South Asian female to become a branch manager, featured in newspapers, everything so that was awesome. Come to Brampton though and the whole area is saturated with South Asians. And I hate to say this but in Calgary, I had more support from non-South Asians who uplifted me in becoming a branch manager. So sadly it was our own people putting us down, especially the men. So how can we fight against racism and sexism when our own community is putting us down?

Naaz: Nani-ji and Harjit Auntie, how was it for you as an immigrant mother raising girls in Canada? How did you balance the integration of both Canadian and South Asian culture?

Nani-ji: We knew it was important to teach our girls about living in Canada. We moved to Golden where the population was predominantly white. So we knew we had to teach our children for them to survive in this white town. It was hard in the beginning. We didn’t know the lifestyle, and we didn’t know English but with the support of some people, we were able to make it work. I learned enough to get by in the beginning. Your nana never went to the parent-teacher interviews…I always did and that was tough. I would have to piece things together with the limited English I did know and the teachers were rarely accommodating. But at the end of the day, it all worked out beautifully and look at where all my girls are now. 

Harjit Auntie: I think the most important thing for me was breaking down the sexism within our community first so I always treated Ajay [Jasmine’s brother] and Jasmine the same. It was also important to me for my children to see that we all come from different walks of life and different countries and have different beliefs…that's what makes Canada multicultural. So we have to embrace our culture and I’ve taught my children the dance, the food, the outfits, and everything about India. At the same time, I knew it was important for my kids to embrace Canadian culture because at the end of the day we live in this country. I remember when I was growing up mom (nani-ji) actually learned to sew a skirt for me for a Christmas concert. She knew how important it was for me and taught herself how to do that. If we wouldn’t have taught our children about Canadian culture then they wouldn’t have been successful. They were going to be taught English regardless but no one was going to teach them Punjabi. So you know, you have to be Canadian but our culture is beautiful, and finding that balance can be hard but we can all do it. 

Naaz: Jasmine, as a first generation Canadian, how has it been integrating the dominant Canadian culture with your own heritage and cultural background? How was it balancing the East vs the West, the brown vs the white?

Jasmine: I think growing up at home I was exposed equally to both cultures because my parents intentionally did it that way. They would show us a lot about Western culture, like the Calgary Stampede. At the same time, my dadi (paternal grandmother) and nani would teach me to speak Punjabi when I stayed with them. I would go to the gurdwara (Sikh temple) and learn about religion. When I went to school I was very lucky in the sense that my school was 70% apna (apna = our people) but even within that I would sometimes be told by my own peers that I was too white. But then my skin tone was too dark so I was like what do I do? I was in this space where I felt like I always had to prove to apna that I am Punjabi and proud of it. I started doing bhangra (a form of Punjabi folk dance) and got really good at it. And we used our platform to highlight that brown girls can also do bhangra and don't just have to stick to gidha (a form of Punjabi folk dance) because that's another sexist thing that happens in our community. As I got older I realized how important it was for me to hold onto my roots and own them. I was very lucky because I was surrounded by people that embraced both sides of it. I had my nana who would teach us about culture and religion and then I had my mom who taught me to be a strong, independent woman. Then I met you [Naaz] in university and you taught me the importance of balancing it all and not forgetting where we come from so I think I’ve just been very lucky. What started as a battle of being too white or too Indian didn’t matter to me anymore. What mattered was that I could be Canadian but still be an integral part of the South Asian community.

Naaz: Do you think people from dominant Canadian culture were open to you embracing your Punjabi culture or do you feel like you were pressured to assimilate into Canadian culture?

Jasmine: So I think growing up one of the biggest ways my mom made sure we loved our culture was through food. I mean our food is delicious (it really truly is)! So mom would always make us these great Indian dishes for lunch but taking them to school would be so embarrassing. My Caucasian classmates would always make fun of the smell or the appearance. I remember this one time very clearly in the first grade my mom got me this beautiful kurta to wear for class pictures. But I didn’t want to, so I fought her on it. I kept saying “I am going to get bullied” but mother was insistent and I wore it to school. And I was right…the second I got to school everyone looked at me differently and I was ashamed of it. Mother didn’t hear these kinds of things but I heard it all the time at school. Now I look at the picture and I look pretty cute! And like I said before, as I got older I had more of an appreciation for my culture and I was able to revert to who I truly am. So now I take it upon myself to educate others around me. I was able to change the narrative from being bullied all the time to sharing my culture with others. So it's definitely changed but there was a lot of bullying and it was hard growing up. 

Harjit Auntie-ji: I knew they were having a hard time in school but I also  knew I was shaping my kids to be better adults. We can say it's the inside that matters but really on the outside you are South Asian and people are going to identify you that way. I look at some kids now who weren’t taught about their culture. They can’t speak a word of Punjabi, they don’t like Indian food, and they are embarrassed by their culture. Their parents didn’t teach them the beauty of it like I taught my children. Unfortunately, we have to go through these hardships to this day. I wish it wasn’t that way but it is. 

Naaz: What is needed to help address racism towards South Asians in Canada?

Harjit Auntie: I think to address racism means we have to go beyond tolerating it. And honestly, I think education is key. Education means more awareness of what is happening in our country. Also, be proud of who you are, and be proud of your culture. The more you hide away from it…the more you are letting racism win. 

Jasmine: I think empowerment is also very important. We have to empower ourselves and each other. Like my mother said there are kids out there that are my age who don’t acknowledge their religion or culture. Why can’t we do both? We talk about Canada being a diverse country for a reason, so showcase it and be loud about it. Don’t back down like mother said because if we back down we are already losing the battle. I also feel like we get embarrassed by our parents and grandparents. When we go out in public we will say things like “don’t do that”, “this is embarrassing” or “don’t act this way”. What you are forgetting is they made it here, they experienced their own battles. They made it on their own two feet so we didn’t have to struggle like them and now you are trying to shun them like the rest of society? If anything we should be embracing our parents and grandparents and showing them off. Also having lived in a small town like Kelowna I think education is huge. There aren’t enough resources. There isn’t enough diversity in those communities. Yes we have a gurdwara in Kelowna and it's beautiful but they just started doing Nagar Kirtaans when we first moved there for university. There’s a lack of resources, there’s nowhere to go for anyone who has experienced racism, and so forth. We were lucky enough in school that we had things like the Peer Support Network but we were spearheading that together so we were the ones creating resources for others. We need services geared towards people of color in smaller towns, we need events and clubs showcasing the diversity, we just simply need more resources. 

Naaz: How can someone be an ally for the South Asian community?

Harjit Auntie-ji: I mean do what I did. I saw kids get picked on at school for their race and I stood up for them. But you can put yourself in danger if you do that so I would suggest assessing the situation first. I think things like what you are doing, sharing the voices of South Asian women, putting it on a website, and spreading awareness and education are ways to be an ally. Another way is starting education from home. I would always take Ajay and Jasmine to go volunteer during Christmas or at shelters so they were aware of the true realities of Canada. I also made sure my children ate everything and were exposed to different cultural foods. Racism starts from home. Kids pick up on the comments and conversations more than you think. So I think we need to be aware of what we are saying at home, have those conversations, and communicate safely and properly. 

Jasmine: I think being open to education is just as important as educating others. Be willing to learn from your peers and be open to experiences. One of my biggest pet peeves is someone saying no before they have even tried something. My way of connecting with people is through food. I have a diverse group of friends and we always share cultural dishes. Another way you can be an ally is by listening. Be open-minded and hear about our stories, hear about our struggles, and more importantly believe in us. Don’t tell us we are looking too into it or exaggerating. You did not experience what that person did so just be kind and empathic. I’ve seen some of our elders also be racist towards other cultures. My brother and I are the first to educate our elders about different cultures. So I think it's important for us as South Asians to also be allies for other people of color. 

Harjit Auntie-ji: And you know what I am honored to learn from my kids! They have taught me things and helped me change my mindset about some cultures. For example, I used to have this mindset that my children are Indian so therefore can only marry Indian but over time through education and hearing from my children I thought to myself “why”? We get so caught up on what other people are going to say (log kya kahenge am I right?) that we don’t realize we are being racist too. So we talk about experiencing racism but we are actually being racist towards others and I am guilty of it too. So it goes both ways. Take a step back, think about what you are saying, why you are saying it, and have a conversation with others. 

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about your culture?

Harjit Auntie-ji: It's not always just butter chicken and naan (it's “naan” people. NOT “naan bread”...just “naan”). Our culture goes beyond that. Yes, sexism exists but there are people like my dad who empower our women and break down these stereotypes. I know how to check the oil and washer fluid in my car and I can make amazing saabji but that's because my dad was breaking down that vicious cycle. 

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about South Asian women?

Jasmine: Ohh that is a tough one. I wish people knew just how strong we really are. South Asian women are bearing it all. We bear the sexism and racism from the gora but also the sexism from home. South Asian women make the world work and sacrifice so much for their families. I think you, and I, are both in a position where we have strong, amazing mothers who have sacrificed so much, given so much, and asked for nothing in return. So I think if there’s anything I want the world to know about South Asian women is that we are pretty hype, we are strong, we carry so much and we still get it all done. 

Final Messages

Jasmine’s Final Message: Treat others the way you want to be treated. Before you judge others, have a conversation with them. It never hurts to have a chaa da cup and see what their life is like. I think we live in a society where we are too quick to judge and attack people. So it's important to be kind, take a step back, and just listen. So that’s my final message: Be open to conversations and be open to learning from others. 

Harjit Auntie’s Final Message: My message to everyone out there is to be who you are. Be proud of your heritage and don’t hide it. Teach our future generations about our culture because if we don’t no one else will and our culture will die with them. It's ok that we are in Canada. You can be Canadian and South Asian at the same time. There's nothing wrong with being South Asian and there's nothing wrong with being Canadian. We are all here living in this country so let's embrace it together. 

Nani-ji’s final message: First of all I am just glad you young kids are creating opportunities where our voices can be heard. Secondly, I think it's important to learn your language. That way you can communicate and learn from your Elders. And if you are an Elder be open to learning from your grandchildren. They have a lot of wisdom too. 

Meet the Grewal Women

Participants: Rupinder [Mom], Harnaaz, Saaya & Sahiti

Naaz: Do you think racism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Mom: I think racism is still everywhere, especially in the workplace. If you are a white person you will always get priority but black people won’t, brown people won’t. As a brown business owner, I see it all the time. There’s a preference for white trucker drivers, white customers, etc.

Saaya: I think with my generation having access to phones you can hide behind a screen and hide your identity. You can say anything you want without getting caught. There's less physical racism but you see a lot of hate messages on platforms like TikTok. I feel like it comes in so many different forms now and is almost more aggressive because kids my age know they can get away with it.

Sahiti: Racism is most definitely still here. The way you are seeing it is changing a little bit. Like Saaya said you can hide your identity now whereas back in the day it was a lot more in your face.

Naaz: Do you think sexism occurs in Canada and have you experienced it?

Mom: Again, my point of view comes from being a business owner. I can think of an incident recently where one of our truck driver’s wife thought I was sending inappropriate messages because she couldn’t phantom the fact that a brown woman was leading a trucking company. Why is it not ok for a woman to be doing a man’s job? Why can’t I be the boss of a company? I don’t think these things are going to go away anytime soon, unfortunately.

Saaya: We grew up being taught that men are the leaders, the strong ones. But my generation and Didi's (older sister aka me) generation are seeing more women leaders and seeing women take more initiative. For example, in Surrey, South Asian women are dominating the make-up industry and you wouldn’t have seen that a few years ago. But we still struggle. One because of the color of our skin and two because no one wants to see brown girls succeed. Everyone's out to get you and take you down. We see women do it to other women because for some reason it's hard to see others succeed. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what our skin color is, it doesn’t matter what sex we identify as, we are all human but this barrier continues to be there.

Sahiti: 10 out of 10. As a mechanical engineer, this is something I have dealt with my entire life. I went to a university in a small town and it was so hard for some people to grasp the concept of me, a brown female, being a mechanical engineer. Peers wouldn’t listen to me in class because I was a female. I remember this one time in class we were operating a pretty expensive piece of machinery and my partner would just not listen to me. My professor walks by and stops us immediately and tells him how to do it correctly…which was the way I was saying all along! There wasn’t even an apology from my partner or anything. I felt vindicated but I didn’t get closure.

Saaya: I think I can add to that too. I am in school for psychology and one of my best friends is in engineering and she's also a female. So when people ask what field I am in I will say psychology and I usually hear comments like “oh yeah that makes sense” but when they ask Sukhneet (the friend in engineering) they are shocked because she is a female. So I think it's so true what Sahiti is saying. We aren’t close to being equal yet despite what people may think.

Naaz: Do you think racism and sexism are connected when thinking about how South Asian women are treated in Canada?

Sahiti: I'm sure it is. I can think back to instances in my life where I have been discriminated against but it was either because I was brown or because I was a woman. I can think of one recent incident where it might have been both. A lot of people I work with are older white men. So as soon as they meet me the first thing they think is “oh she's a girl. She doesn't know what she is doing” and then the immediate thought following is “oh she's also brown and now she's going to try and tell me what to do”. A white female colleague and I went to the site and the second we got there we knew the man we were dealing with was…well an asshole. When I was talking to him he wouldn’t make eye contact with me and it seemed like he almost didn’t care about what I had to say. But when my white female colleague spoke to him he listened more but he did still talk down to us. So he treated us both poorly. I just got the shitter end of the stick for also being brown.

Mom: I’m in the construction business which is pretty male-dominated. I remember last year this white male driver’s truck broke down so I went to the truck with my tools and my things. I started fixing his truck and he was so shocked that I was (a) a female and (b) a brown female. If your dad was there he wouldn’t care as much. He would think that's normal and not make the stupid comments he did about me.

Naaz: Mom, we’ve had conversations before about the racism you’ve experienced in Canada. Do you think racism has changed in Canada? What type of racism did you experience when you first immigrated here? What does it look like now?

Mom: The racism from the 80s was totally different from the racism I experience now. In the 80s when I was in school our community was made up of farmers, biker gangs, etc. We used to get spit on, our lockers would be glued shut all the time, students would yell racial slurs as I walked down the hallway. I remember this one time my English teacher told me that she won’t give me 90% or even 80% in her class because English was my second language. So I ended up with a 60% even though I was doing better than half my classmates. My older brother was a genius and he would also do the bonus assignments, and get As on tests, and our teachers wouldn’t give him anything higher than 60% too. So they were already setting us up to fail while the white kids got to succeed. Why do you think Bindy Johal was such an iconic figure for us? It's because he was one of the first brown guys in our community to stand up against police violence, hate crimes, and blatant racism but they labeled him as this gangster to discredit him. All he was trying to do was get our voices out there. We were protected by him. But even when you [Naaz] were growing up teachers would treat you differently. You got  put into ESL classes because you spoke a second language. Teachers assumed you were dumb because you came from India. Those kinds of things still happened in the early 2000s. Now I can fight back. Back then I couldn’t because there just wasn’t enough of us. 

Naaz: Sahiti and Saaya, as a first generation Canadians, have you experienced racism and how have you navigated that?

Sahiti: Growing up mom made delicious meals all the time. Indian food is fanatic. Let's just set that record straight. But I got made fun of every time I opened up my lunchbox because the food was “stinky”. So then it started becoming plain old peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I would literally beg my mom like “please don’t make these meals” and you could see that it broke her heart. She didn’t want her daughter to be ashamed of her culture but it was the way it was. She was stuck between a rock and hard place because she wanted me to be proud of my culture but she also knew I was getting bullied. It got better in high school because I went to a predominately South Asian school. I saw other people embracing their culture which made it safe for me to embrace mine. University was tough. I grew up in Calgary so I learned two-step, and I listened to country music so when I moved to a small town I felt like I needed to be that much extra. I would be extra nice, be extra smiley. I would also go to the dance floor to make it a point that brown girls knew how to dance but it didn’t help. I would like to think I am a relatively attractive person (I mean DUH of course my best friend is beautiful!) but no one would ever approach me because I was a brown girl. Hell, my friend would have a literal engagement ring on her hand but boys would come up to her all the time and she would direct them to me. The second they looked at me they would walk away because I was a brown girl and that was a huge shock for me.

Saaya: I went to a primarily white elementary school and that's exactly what I used to do too. I remember for the longest time I would suppress my own culture and not speak Punjabi. You wanted to fit in, you wanted to be liked, and you brought the food that you saw other students were bringing. Who we are, what we ate, and what we valued weren’t accepted back then and I was ashamed of that. When I went to high school things changed. I felt safer because I was surrounded by people that were also South Asian. There were still some brown girl stereotypes you had to deal with like getting made fun of for thicker curves and facial hair. I still felt like I was being stereotyped by teachers though and mind you I just graduated high school like last year. Teachers still put brown kids into a box and that's not fair.

Naaz: Sahiti, why do you think you experienced a shift in racism moving from Calgary to Kelowna?

Sahiti: I think it has to do with exposure and education. People from larger cities are forced to learn about different cultures because they are exposed to them, whether they like it or not. It was common to have Indian kids in your class, it was common for us to bring “stinky” food. Whereas in small towns there wasn’t that exposure. I remember having to almost “whitify” my name because I was just constantly told that my name is too hard to say. It's not that hard but I went years with a different name to fit in. I went back to suppressing the Indian in me and I did not enjoy that.

Saaya: I get what Sahiti means by exposure. I grew up in the heart of Vancouver and when I moved to UVIC it was a much smaller town. I think I can count on one hand the number of people I know that are brown at UVIC. People in Vancouver can even tell the difference between Punjabis and Gujratis, Sikhs and Hindus, but over there they have no clue. So I think it's because in smaller towns there's just less education and exposure like Sahiti said. If anything it's other IBPOC people that approach me and want to be friends with me, not white people.

Naaz: Mom,  how was it for you as an immigrant mother raising girls in Canada? How did you balance the integration of both Canadian and South Asian culture?

Mom: It was a tough position for me as a mom and a businesswoman. In our culture, we are taught that men are the leaders even though when you and Saaya were growing up I did everything. But we still had to attach a man’s name and a man got all the credit for a woman’s work. That's because it's been instilled in me since childhood. It starts with your dad, then your brothers, then your husband, and your sons. I think I still have those biases sometimes but they have become so internalized that it's hard to break through. One thing that always keeps me going is I remember the things I had to go through, the struggles I went through and I don’t want my girls to have to go through that. When I was growing up I wasn’t allowed to go out, I wasn’t allowed to shave, etc. So I made sure I gave that freedom to my daughters. Yes, there are times when I will silence my girls and I am sorry for that but like I said it's so drilled into me to be that way. If I could do it again I would raise my girls in a completely different way (note to mother: You raised two badass, intelligent women, who will always stand up against injustice. You raised your girls right ❤️)

Naaz: Sahiti and Saaya, as  first generation Canadians , how has it been integrating the dominant Canadian culture with your own heritage and cultural background? How was it balancing the East vs the West, the brown vs the white?

Saaya: I think mom taught us balance. Dad would teach us paath (prayer) and we had daily Punjabi and Sikhism lessons from him. The cool thing mom did, which not many South Asian moms do, is she taught us about the business aspect of things. She would take me to random business meetings, she would take me to the store, to the yard. I picked up on her boss lady mannerisms and I adopted them. At school though I had an identity crisis because I had different sets of friends so I didn’t know how to act, when to act and who to act around. I know when didi was growing up our parents were definitely strict but when I got older I was able to break through the cultural norms. I was allowed to wear certain clothes, have boy and girl friends over, etc. With time and age, and raising didi before me, I think mom and dad just learned how to teach us that balance. 
Sahiti: For the longest time I lived separate lives. I had a separate closet my dad didn’t know about. I had a separate set of friends my dad never met. My mom was my mom so I was always able to tell her things because it was easier with her. She would be interested in parts of my life and ask questions. Eventually, it got tough and tiring. I needed to be true to myself and being in high school it was a lot easier because I was able to embrace my Indian side. But for the longest time, it was not easy, and integrating into two was not a smooth transition. For the longest time, it was “kill the Indian” in me and be as white as possible.

Naaz: Do you think our education system has done a good job at educating people about South Asian culture and community? If not, do you think it should be included in Canada’s education system?

Sahiti: I think Canadian history in general is not taught well..sorry not sorry. I had a teacher who went against the curriculum to teach us about residential schools because she thought it was important and I am very proud of her for that. In school, they didn’t want us to be taught about residential schools, and other dark parts of our history, because it wasn’t a part of Canada’s highlight reel. It needs to be studied and it needs to be respected because it happened and there is nothing we can do to change that. The people that live on this land need to understand what happened to the people that own this land. The least we can do is acknowledge what happened. Aside from that, I think I learned a little bit about the Chinese railroad situation in BC but we didn’t even touch on South Asian history. We have a decent South Asian population in Canada so I do think we need to incorporate something. But I think we need to focus on Indigenous history first. It will be a lot easier for people to wrap their heads around that before we can discuss South Asian history in Canada.
Saaya: That's so shocking to hear it wasn’t in your curriculum because when I was leaving elementary school it was mandatory to learn about Indigenous history…but it was sugar-coated. I remember my grade 6 teacher, Mr. Minhas, introduced a “What in the World '' activity each week where we talked about current world events. I think something like that should be incorporated in all schools. In high school, we talked more in-depth about Canada’s government and what they did to Indigenous people in Canada but they wouldn't reveal the full truth. They would tell us to go learn on our own and what they would teach us would be sugar-coated. I think the only time I learned about South Asian history was Komagata Maru in grade 10 and even then it was briefly mentioned. I agree with Sahiti though. We need to be taught about true Canadian history and only then can we incorporate South Asian history within that.

Naaz: Have you ever been treated differently because of the color of your skin, whether that's in a health care setting or going to a restaurant?

Sahiti: Restaurants all the time. I recently went to a bar and there was some live music playing and I was the only person of color in the entire place. No one was talking to me. I was waiting at the bar and you would think being a woman at the bar I would get served. Sexism in reverse and all. The bar wasn’t busy at all and I even had my card pulled out, ready to go. No one would serve me. Two white guys came up and got served and still nothing. Then finally a friend of mine, a white male, came up to the bar, and immediately the bartender came running to us. 
Saaya: I think we automatically get looked down upon anywhere we go. People start to analyze us. They look at the color of our skin and see if we have an accent or not. Why can’t you just see me as another human being? It's just so automatic I guess but we get treated differently for sure. Look at dad for example. He is a South Asian male and wears a paag (turban). People treat him poorly at restaurants all the time, whether it's intentional or not. Or take nani for example who wears Punjabi suits in public. Because she isn’t wearing a shirt and jeans, she gets looked down upon.

Naaz: Has the COVID-19 pandemic played a role in perpetuating racism towards South Asians in Canada? 

Mom: I remember when the vaccine first came out. Surrey is predominantly South Asian and we can’t deny it. We went to Surrey to get our vaccine and there was a long, long lineup. But if you went to Langley, White Rock, or South Surrey even, where the population was predominantly white, you were all the sudden able to get the vaccine without waiting in line. All of a sudden areas like Langley and White Rock, which have a smaller population overall, had all these resources but a large city like Surrey didn't. Why? Because it was filled with brown people. The same thing happened again with the second vaccine. We went to Surrey and again waited in line. But if you went to White Rock you got in right away. The health care system treated Surrey like a third-world country because it was filled with brown people. That opened up my eyes quite a bit. 

Saaya: That just makes me so mad because culturally South Asians live in multi-family houses and we do live with grandparents who are at more risk for COVID-19. So brown people have actually been one of the populations to go get our vaccines first in order to protect our Elderly but then they pull shit like this making it hard for us to get them. Then they turn around and blame us for the spread of COVID-19 (for context: a Premier in Alberta went on a radio show and talked about how Punjabi people are not “complicit” and South Asians living in big families are one of the reasons why COVID-19 continues to spread in Canada). The government and media are going to pick a narrative that works for them and run with it. The majority of the people in Surrey that were anti-mask and anti-vaccine were white but I don’t see that on the news. But sure we brown people don’t follow the rules and we are the reason for spreading COVID...what a joke! It isn’t just COVID-19 too. Look at Diwali for example. Yes, people did leave a mess of fireworks but they cleaned it up the next day. I don’t see newspapers making those kinds of accusations on Canada Day. 
Sahiti: The white privilege in choosing to get vaccines is something I completely agree with. Because choosing not to get the vaccine is the ultimate show of white privilege, in my opinion. I don’t know a single person of color who didn’t get the vaccine. We are so used to having vaccines, especially coming from countries like India. Hell the UN and World Health Organization doesn’t even give us the option. They don’t need anyone’s consent…they just come stab babies with vaccines. Why? Because vaccines work people! From what I have seen it is predominately white people in Canada that don't want to get the vaccine, they are the ones protesting, etc. As far as I know, every South Asian person I have interacted with was either happy to work from home, waiting for the bans to be lifted or following the mandate. And like Saaya said, if you had grandparents at home, you didn’t want to put them at risk.

Naaz: Why do you think South Asian women do not report hate crimes?

Saaya: I think it's because we are taught not to speak up about things like this. Even at weddings or South Asian events if something illegal happens or if a fight breaks out we are told to be quiet about it and not call the police. We are taught to uphold this beautiful image of what South Asian people are and should be. Plus in Surrey, you don’t want to come off as the “snitch” because then the Surrey Jacks won’t like you or whatever. It's just taught to us over and over again and it's up to us to break through that. Speak up about what is happening and report it. 

Sahiti: We are taught to put our heads down and study and create a better life. So we become tunnel visioned and stay in this bubble. I know my parents had the best intentions but I was always taught to not make a big deal out of it, or that people were only joking, or that because we come from a different country we just have to deal with it. Hasan Minaj talks about this in one of his stand-ups and it really resonated with me. It was something like if you talk about it, you’ll get in more trouble because it will turn into “what were you doing, you must have been doing something wrong”. We see this all the time with women who report sexual assault right? What was she wearing? What was she drinking? She must have done something to provoke the situation. Whereas in reality she just happened to be a woman regardless of the circumstance.

Naaz: What is needed to help address racism in Canada towards the South Asian community? 

Saaya: I think social media has helped a lot and can continue to be helpful. More people are being called out on social media for saying racist things. And yes I know some people are saying canceling culture is too hard or whatever but it's also doing some good. Another thing that will help address racism is speaking up about it. Everything we were raised not to do is what we should be doing. We should report it, we should speak up against it. People can create awareness all they want but it's up to us to put it into action. 
Mom: I think Saaya is completely right. I think social media is huge. I think our schooling system also needs to address racism. It starts at kindergarten not grade 11 when it's too late and the biases are already cemented. The school system needs to be revised. We need to learn about Indigenous history, South Asian history, and so forth.

Sahiti: How do you change anything? Education. That's what is happening with social media...people are educating themselves and becoming more aware. Yes, the repercussions might be cancel culture but at the end of the day, people are still listening, people are still grasping that knowledge, people are still remembering it and learning from that 30-second TikTok that they saw. I think the problem now is there is also misinformation so some negative things are being pushed. There's good and bad in everything but I still think good outweighs the bad. It's always going to come down to education. 

Naaz: Where can someone go to learn more about South Asian cultures? 

Sahiti: YouTube is fantastic! I've learned so many different things by just watching YouTube videos, especially about India’s history. I am sure there's stuff on there about South Asians in Canada. 

Mom: In every corner of Canada we have gurdwaras and we will always welcome you with open arms. So if anyone wants to be taught about Punjabi culture and Sikh religion I would say go there. The priests are always willing to teach you. Otherwise, I think libraries are always a good source but who really goes to a library anymore?

Saaya: There are some really good social media accounts you can learn from. The simplest thing you can do is go to your brown peers and start asking them questions. But make sure you are asking in ways that are embracing their culture and not offensive. Ask them about their personal experiences and be willing to listen to them.

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about the many cultures that come out of South Asia?

Sahiti: What drives me insane is people don’t realize the power behind bindis. Stop wearing them to your effing music festivals and go learn about what they actually represent. My mom wears one every single day. She has never once been asked why. She has never been asked about the significance behind it. Also, there is a lot to learn about India. In Canada, the Punjabi population has dominated and is the largest South Asian community here but I wish people knew that India is way more diverse than that. “South Asia'' encompasses more than just Punjabi people. 

Naaz: What is something you wish people knew about South Asian women? 

Mom: South Asian women are the brainpower in the home. We deal with every situation. We not only raise our children but we work, uphold the housework, etc. I don’t have the luxury to getting mad and say fuck it I am taking the day off. South Asian women put up with a lot of shit and I wish people knew that. There is never a situation where a woman doesn’t know what to do. 

Saaya: I have a lot to say about us South Asian women. I love having a space where I can dress up and feel pretty. We have this unspoken camaraderie with other South Asian women. I think it's because we have been through similar experiences so we are always willing to lend a shoulder to cry on. It's a beautiful form of therapy. I love our brown sisterhood.

Final Messages 

Mom’s final message: My message is to all my daughters out there and my mothers. Listen to your children, and let them be who they want to be. It's going to be very difficult but give them that freedom because it will give them the self-confidence they need in this world. I wish someone would have let me fly free but I didn’t get that. So my wish for the next generation of South Asian girls is for them to fly free and soar in the sky. 

Sahiti’s final message: My message is to the younger me, and the younger generations like Saaya. We hold onto a lot of guilt but we don’t have to. I hold a lot of guilt because I was ashamed of my culture for the longest time and now I'm trying to backtrack and embrace my culture more. To the younger generations, I want to say that it is tough and you are doing the best you can, kid. Keep your head up and wherever you land, be true to yourself. Be happy with who you are and don’t feel guilty. It is okay. You are okay. 

Saaya’s final message: You are you and there is nothing more beautiful than that. Who you are on the inside should be the only thing that matters.